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acpatagnan
02-18-2008, 05:27 PM
It is a fact that corruption in the government is a way of life. It is called a part of the culture of the people that is institutionalized or became a habit. Bribeng a govenment officials and employees to make your transactions with them fast. Is it moral to give bribe to the government? Is it moral for the government to indulge in any economic activities. To answer these questions, we need to know what exactly is the ONLY PROPER FUNCTION OF THE GOVERNMENT in the life of each individual citizens. And before we can answer that we have to know exactly what is the nature of man and its relations to reality. We have to know exactly what is the nature of reality.

In short, what are the ideas being thought in our schools from elementary to colleges. Who are the most influencial in this area. Is it not the religious sector? Ateneo, la Salle, UST, and many others are under the influencial teaching of the religouos philosophy and ideas? What are the ideas being thought in these schools leads into actions in our culture and the kind of government we have.

Logically, to reform is to change ideas. To change ideas that are influencialy taught in our schools. And this is a very long and very tiring process BUT DOABLE AND ACHIEVABLE.

"To save the world is the simpliest thing in the world. All one has to do is think." -Leonard Piekoff

agta
02-19-2008, 07:01 AM
It is a fact that corruption in the government is a way of life. It is called a part of the culture of the people that is institutionalized or became a habit. Bribeng a govenment officials and employees to make your transactions with them fast. Is it moral to give bribe to the government? Is it moral for the government to indulge in any economic activities. To answer these questions, we need to know what exactly is the ONLY PROPER FUNCTION OF THE GOVERNMENT in the life of each individual citizens. And before we can answer that we have to know exactly what is the nature of man and its relations to reality. We have to know exactly what is the nature of reality.

In short, what are the ideas being thought in our schools from elementary to colleges. Who are the most influencial in this area. Is it not the religious sector? Ateneo, la Salle, UST, and many others are under the influencial teaching of the religouos philosophy and ideas? What are the ideas being thought in these schools leads into actions in our culture and the kind of government we have.

Logically, to reform is to change ideas. To change ideas that are influencialy taught in our schools. And this is a very long and very tiring process BUT DOABLE AND ACHIEVABLE.

"To save the world is the simpliest thing in the world. All one has to do is think." -Leonard Piekoff

In short also, we need to know what really is MORAL and what is IMMORAL. Ateneo, Lasalle, UST? What is their logical relation to the rampant immorality/corruption in Government? Have you ever conducted a research/study as to how many of those in government today graduated from these schools?

Jeff
02-19-2008, 11:03 AM
In short also, we need to know what really is MORAL and what is IMMORAL. Ateneo, Lasalle, UST? What is their logical relation to the rampant immorality/corruption in Government? Have you ever conducted a research/study as to how many of those in government today graduated from these schools?


It will be unfair if we are going to link corruptions to the product of the mentioned schools no meaning. What really need to know is the root of corruption how it started, what drives people to corrupt, is it the system? or the individual to blame? Identifying all the source is not enough, what we need is the counter measures to stamp out corruption. Thinking with out action is futile.

agta
02-20-2008, 04:26 AM
It will be unfair if we are going to link corruptions to the product of the mentioned schools no meaning. What really need to know is the root of corruption how it started, what drives people to corrupt, is it the system? or the individual to blame? Identifying all the source is not enough, what we need is the counter measures to stamp out corruption. Thinking with out action is futile.
That's right! UST, Lasalle, Ateneo, or any school/institution for that matter...they don't have to be mentioned when we speak of corruption in government.
For me, corruption is just an outgrowth of a "cancer". It is a manifestation of the fallen nature of man. When the men (as a generic term, includes male and female) composing society remains in their fallen nature, we can expect corruption to remain too. What we should do therefore is to strive to liberate man from his fallen nature. How? The task is not easy because we have to take into account that man has free will. We do not simply impose our will upon another against the latter's will. We start from our individual homes. We start to show love. But we cannot show real love if we do not have it. Where or from who shall we get that love? We get it from the fountain of love, Jesus Christ. The primary task therefore is to know Jesus Christ and become part of Him.

acpatagnan
02-24-2008, 04:34 AM
The government officials we have today are all graduates from prestigious and religous schools and they are also a graduate from foreign schools. Generally, schooling starts from our own home (teachings from our parents) then elementary, high schools and colleges. What are the moral philosophy being taught in those schools, in general, the fundamentals. Is it not the religous moral philosophy?

It is a fact, our President is the product of Assumption college, the first gentleman is the product of Ateneo. Former president, Erap is the product of Ateneo only to mention the few. Our government officials are intelligent, bright and the living products of our educational instition mostly from religous sector. But still we have this corruption, scandals and bribery and will alway be there in the government. This is the symptoms and effects of much more deeper caused. And the only reason of the root cause of it all that I can pinpoint is what is being inputted in the mind from the early age. What is the dominant philosophy, teachings that is being bombarded in the minds of man.
In the computer lingo garbage in, garbage out. What is being put in the mind can be put out in a form of actions and expressions.
Now the question is what moral philosophy, generally, is being taught in our schools by the influencial religious sector? What are moral philosophy taught by our parent on the start of our life?

Yes, man has a free will. We are free to choose a kind of moral philosophy to put in our minds and in the minds of our children. We are free to use our mind or not to use it or to misuse it. The question is what kind of input do you have since birth in your mind? What kind of moral philosophy? For sure it is the dominant religous moral philosophy. Then you will ask what's wrong with the religious moral philosophy? You have to find it out yourself by the use of your own tool which is your mind.

mybabe
02-25-2008, 06:57 AM
iti s in the culture whether we like it or not....and to stop the corruption, it will start in ourselves...i give credit to the effort of some religious group by giving shelter to those whisle blower in the community.

agta
02-25-2008, 08:27 AM
Yes, man has a free will. We are free to choose a kind of moral philosophy to put in our minds and in the minds of our children. We are free to use our mind or not to use it or to misuse it. The question is what kind of input do you have since birth in your mind? What kind of moral philosophy? For sure it is the dominant religous moral philosophy. Then you will ask what's wrong with the religious moral philosophy? You have to find it out yourself by the use of your own tool which is your mind.
What is your basis for saying that the dominant "input" for sure is the religious moral philosophy? Was there an official study/research conducted about it or is it based only on your personal experience? If it is based only on your personal experience then it could be yours alone. For my experience is very much different. I graduated from a private religious school. But there, the dominant inputs are not religious moral philosophy. Different subjects are given equal treatment so that the student receives a balanced education. But education does not depend solely on inputs. It is shaped by various factors most often conflict with each other, but moral philosophy is almost not included among the inputs. Therefore, to say that the dominant input since birth is religious moral philosophy is not accurate.

acpatagnan
03-04-2008, 02:32 PM
When I say religious morality, it is the religious knowledge of what is right and wrong, of what is good and evil. It is ethics. Ethics is a code of actions or guide for man's action. The dominant ethics we have is christian ethics. Christianity is one of the religions of the world. And the root of ethics can be traced back to metaphysics and epistemology. Ethics is the application or the technology of metaphysics and epistemology. Metaphysics refers to overall view of nature of existence, of reality and epistemelogy is the method of how to acquire knowledge. In religious metaphysics, in general, their view about the nature of things is that it is created by supernatural being, it is chaotic, miraculous and therefore unstable, unpredictable, unknowable (the mind is not capable of knowing) and subject to the whims of supernatural being. What then is their method of knowledge (epistemology)? How does religion come up to that knowledge of their metaphysical view of nature, of existence? And the only answer is by FAITH. Faith is acceptance without any questions about proof or evidence. And this mental set up leads to actions (ethics,morality) that are contradictory and dichotomy. To simply summarized my point with regard to religion is as follows:

Metaphysics: nature of things were created by supernatural being.
Epistemology: knowledge come only from that supernatural being by
faith, the mind is impotent and secondary to faith.
Ethics: man's action should be the obedience to supernatural being,
sacrificing self to God or to others as the prime function of man's
life here on earth.(Altruism and collectivism) Politics is the social application of ethics Authoritarianism, dictatorship, communism, fascism and socialism and even democracy (the rule of majority) are identified as results of the above view.

With respect to religious schools I mentioned, in humanities and philosophy subjects are most probably emphazised on the catholic teachings or christian ethics. The above summary are what can be identifies as their fundamentals in general. Overall it is fundamentallly religious ideas and with the mixture of science. If you accept religion or faith as the method of knowledge which do you accept: the idea of creationism or the idea of evolution?

Now with regards to ethics, there is an alternative to religous ethics (christian ethics, islamic ethics, hindu ethics, buddist ethics etc) and that is ETHICS BASED ON REASON ONLY.

acpatagnan
03-04-2008, 02:42 PM
iti s in the culture whether we like it or not....and to stop the corruption, it will start in ourselves...i give credit to the effort of some religious group by giving shelter to those whisle blower in the community.

In other word, a person is the product of his own mind-a mind that had been acquiring false ideas, wrong teachings without any questions from religions.

How about on the otherside of the fence (the Aroryo side)? They have also priest, they held masses? Do you think it is a battle for competition for the hearing from supernatural being called God?

Don't you observed that most filipino cultures were based on religious mysticism? Don't you observed that it is the root cause of all false idea then therefore corruption is the symptoms?

Europa
03-05-2008, 02:53 AM
In other word, a person is the product of his own mind-a mind that had been acquiring false ideas, wrong teachings without any questions from religions.

How about on the otherside of the fence (the Aroryo side)? They have also priest, they held masses? Do you think it is a battle for competition for the hearing from supernatural being called God?

Don't you observed that most filipino cultures were based on religious mysticism? Don't you observed that it is the root cause of all false idea then therefore corruption is the symptoms?

I USED TO THINK THAT CORRUPTIONS AND CRIMINALITY
IN THE PHILIPPINES WERE CAUSED BY POVERTY
BUT RECENT EVENTS TELL ME THIS IS NOT TRUE
IT IS ONE THING TO SEE PEOPLE TURN INTO DRUG ADDICTS
PROSTITUTES, THIEVES AND MURDERERS BECAUSE
OF HUNGER AND POVERTY. BUT WHAT EXCUSE DO THESE
RICH, EDUCATED PEOPLE HAVE THAT COULD POSIBLY
EXPLAIN THEIR BIZARRE BEHAVIOR? AND TO THINK I WAS
ALWAYS SO RELIEVED WHEN PETTY SNATCHERS
GOT CAUGHT AND LOCKED AWAY IN JAIL BECAUSE
I NEVER FULLY REALIZED THAT THE BIG TIME
THIEVES WERE OUT THERE, MAKING THE LAWS
AND RUNNING THE COUNTRY. CAN IT GET ANY WORSE
THAN THIS..?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MANY CRIMINALS ROAMING AROUND
UNFETTERED AND LOOKING SMUG UNTIL NOW. THESE
CRIMINALS WEAR SUITS AND EXPENSIVE BARONGS
STRUT AROUND WITH CONFIDENCE OF THE RICH AND
FAMOUS, INSPIRE FEAR AND AWE FROM THE VERY CITIZENS
WHO VOTED THEM TO POWER, BEAR TITLES LIKE HONORABLE
SENATOR, JUSTICE, GENERALS AND WORSE PRESIDENT
OR RELATIVES AND HUSBAND OF THOSE HONORABLE
DAW..PEOPLE. IRONICALLY THESE LAWLESS INDIVIDUALS
PRACTICE LAW *MAKE OUR LAWS ENFORCE THE LAW* AND
I WONDER WHY OUR POLICEMEN ACT THE WAY THE
DO. THESE ARE THEIR LEADERS AND THE LEADERS OF
OUR NATION. ROBIN HOODLUM AND THIER BANDS OF MONEYMEN
THEIR MOTTO ROB THE POOR AND INOCENT, MODERATE THE GREED OF THE RICH...

Jeff
03-05-2008, 07:33 AM
We are not well aware that corruption starts in our home, we seldom notice it. There are cases that our young ones are very hard headed, lazy, stubborn and even worse. We as parents, because of less time we can share with them we neglect our roles. But somehow we need to motivate them and the easiest way we can do is to bribe them. Lagi natin sinasabi sa kanila, make good grades, perfect exam and I will give you P100 peso or even more, or be a summa cum laude and I will give you car, high end cellphones, high end laptops so and so just to push them to the limit. Not knowingly we are teaching our children the wrong way of motivation, that as soon as they grow up and become professionals, they will practice even a higher level corruption just to please their cravings or motivating others. We are the one creating monster among themselves. We need to change the ways, the system, we need to determine the roots and uproot it. As I said, corruption is a growing cancer in the society. Curing it is not enough, we need to arrest the whole system, cure the whole system so that it will not recur again.

agta
03-06-2008, 04:34 AM
With respect to religious schools I mentioned, in humanities and philosophy subjects are most probably emphazised on the catholic teachings or christian ethics. The above summary are what can be identifies as their fundamentals in general. Overall it is fundamentallly religious ideas and with the mixture of science. If you accept religion or faith as the method of knowledge which do you accept: the idea of creationism or the idea of evolution?

Now with regards to ethics, there is an alternative to religous ethics (christian ethics, islamic ethics, hindu ethics, buddist ethics etc) and that is ETHICS BASED ON REASON ONLY.
To make your various misconceptions more understandable, may I request that you present here what you call, "ETHICS BASED ON REASONS ONLY"?

acpatagnan
03-06-2008, 05:12 AM
Yes, it is right to say that corruption starts at home. This implies that to be a parent is a very big a very enormous responsibility that must be taught in our school and in our home. You are responsible physically and mentally for the growth and development of the child. And if you want children you have to be prepared in everything; and this means you have to use your mind-your tool. The very natural tool that the bible story won't let you use. Remember the story of Adam and Eve wherein the alleged God won't let them eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The mind is the source of knowledge and not FAITH.

Rewards to success are all right. This means you value success. What the children need is to let their mind do the thinking. Let their mind develop naturally by answering their questions objectively. And of course this requires of a parents to do right. Check your knowledge about morality, ethics and generally your philosophy. If you have this kind of religious philosophy then your are in the wrong direction. Do you know what is the idea behind religous morality, religous idea about the nature of things, religous idea about the nature of man? Then try to know it. How? That's for you to figure out if you are an educated person. You have the mind, the reason and the only thing for you to do is to activate it.

If you acknowledge the fact that man is the product of his own mind. Starting from his birth to adult, his mind has been acquiring ideas, notions, premises, teachings from others-parents, schools, television, movies, newspapers. The most influencial ideas he (knowing or without knowing it)accepted without question are the one that leads him to his own actions, his decisions, his values and views. In short, the MIND is the ruling factor. What the mind gets is what the mind process and received the end results in the form of statements and actions.

Have you ever thought of questioning the dominant ideas-the religous ideas-that has been around for centuries and now it has been growing again? The ideas that dominate in the minds of the modern man? Then do it OBJECTIVELY. You have to identify it clearly.

acpatagnan
03-06-2008, 05:36 AM
I USED TO THINK THAT CORRUPTIONS AND CRIMINALITY
IN THE PHILIPPINES WERE CAUSED BY POVERTY
BUT RECENT EVENTS TELL ME THIS IS NOT TRUE
IT IS ONE THING TO SEE PEOPLE TURN INTO DRUG ADDICTS
PROSTITUTES, THIEVES AND MURDERERS BECAUSE
OF HUNGER AND POVERTY. BUT WHAT EXCUSE DO THESE
RICH, EDUCATED PEOPLE HAVE THAT COULD POSIBLY
EXPLAIN THEIR BIZARRE BEHAVIOR? AND TO THINK I WAS
ALWAYS SO RELIEVED WHEN PETTY SNATCHERS
GOT CAUGHT AND LOCKED AWAY IN JAIL BECAUSE
I NEVER FULLY REALIZED THAT THE BIG TIME
THIEVES WERE OUT THERE, MAKING THE LAWS
AND RUNNING THE COUNTRY. CAN IT GET ANY WORSE
THAN THIS..?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MANY CRIMINALS ROAMING AROUND
UNFETTERED AND LOOKING SMUG UNTIL NOW. THESE
CRIMINALS WEAR SUITS AND EXPENSIVE BARONGS
STRUT AROUND WITH CONFIDENCE OF THE RICH AND
FAMOUS, INSPIRE FEAR AND AWE FROM THE VERY CITIZENS
WHO VOTED THEM TO POWER, BEAR TITLES LIKE HONORABLE
SENATOR, JUSTICE, GENERALS AND WORSE PRESIDENT
OR RELATIVES AND HUSBAND OF THOSE HONORABLE
DAW..PEOPLE. IRONICALLY THESE LAWLESS INDIVIDUALS
PRACTICE LAW *MAKE OUR LAWS ENFORCE THE LAW* AND
I WONDER WHY OUR POLICEMEN ACT THE WAY THE
DO. THESE ARE THEIR LEADERS AND THE LEADERS OF
OUR NATION. ROBIN HOODLUM AND THIER BANDS OF MONEYMEN
THEIR MOTTO ROB THE POOR AND INOCENT, MODERATE THE GREED OF THE RICH...


If you understand how ideas works in the life of man, you will understand that the dominant ideas ruling man is the root caused of his actions (ethics). I can described the dominand ideas today are based on feelings, emotion and faith. Cultures of a nation is based on that dominant conventional ideas. Ethics, the morality is the end result of that ideas being accepted by majority of the people. It is express in action in politics (government) the social application of ethics; and ethics can be traced back to the method of knowledge (either of the two: faith or reason) and to the general view about the nature of reality, existence.

If ideas are bad, wrong and evil therefore the resulting actions are bad, wrond and evil. That is what is happening everrwhere. Obseved it.

agta
03-06-2008, 05:44 AM
Have you ever thought of questioning the dominant ideas-the religous ideas-that has been around for centuries and now it has been growing again? The ideas that dominate in the minds of the modern man? Then do it OBJECTIVELY. You have to identify it clearly.
Yes, I have at one time questioned in my mind the dominant ideas "that has been around for centuries...", and I saw in my my mind that the dominant ideas are not religious ideas in its strict sense but greedy ideas. The idea that is dominant in the world today is GREED. Greed makes people sophisticated; greed makes people insincere to one another. Greed sees nothing beyond what is empirically or physically perceivable; greed teaches that nothing is real except now, and that which could readily be felt by the physical senses. Is it okay to moderate GREED? There is simply no religion there.

acpatagnan
03-07-2008, 06:22 AM
Greed is an emotion, feelings; and they are the result of thinking or an idea that has been in your subconsciousness. Now is acquiring material things. creating values, achieving success, achieving happiness in a reasonable and right way a greed? When you say greed it is acquiring material values in illigitmate way. You have do distinguish the morality of a business man, industrialist from the morality of criminals, robbers, thief. There is a very great difference between a business man and a government employees or officials. There is a different morality between Bill Gates and Mother Theresa. Between the two who is the great benefactor, who is the one that give much to the betterment of man's life. Is it Mother Theresa or Bill Gates? Who do you think produces more value for man: industrialist, enterpreneurs, scientist on one side or government, priest, pastors, gurus, philantrophist on the other side.

If your idea is that the suppport of your own life is your own responsibility and not other people, it is natural and your right to use your mind on how to create values to support it. How are you going to create values? You have to study nature and learned how to transform it in order to support your life. In other word be PRODUCTIVE, and before you become productive you have to be rational (using your mind, reason). Are this idea the primary teaching of religion? (The primary teaching of religions are: Faith, sacrifice to God and others-altruism, collectivism and mysticism)

Do you think government institutions, priest, pastor, gurus (religionist) are productive people? What do they produce? Government extort and ask money from its citizens so the same with religionist. The difference between government is that the latter is voluntary while the other first is compulsory using legality. You may say that they give services. Can you call it service: distributing the money of other people to other people who do not have. Distribution of wealth is an evil idea. This is a violation of right to his own property (Property rights). THIS IDEA BREEDS CORRUPTIONS.

Now what is the religious teaching with regards to government? What is the religious morality about politics? You have to identify and clearly state it in order to challange it and even refute it.

And finally, WHAT IS THE ONLY PROPER FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT?

Jeff
03-07-2008, 06:51 AM
Greed is an emotion, feelings; and they are the result of thinking or an idea that has been in your subconsciousness. Now is acquiring material things. creating values, achieving success, achieving happiness in a reasonable and right way a greed? When you say greed it is acquiring material values in illigitmate way. You have do distinguish the morality of a business man, industrialist from the morality of criminals, robbers, thief. There is a very great difference between a business man and a government employees or officials. There is a different morality between Bill Gates and Mother Theresa. Between the two who is the great benefactor, who is the one that give much to the betterment of man's life. Is it Mother Theresa or Bill Gates? Who do you think produces more value for man: industrialist, enterpreneurs, scientist on one side or government, priest, pastors, gurus, philantrophist on the other side.

If your idea is that the suppport of your own life is your own responsibility and not other people, it is natural and your right to use your mind on how to create values to support it. How are you going to create values? You have to study nature and learned how to transform it in order to support your life. In other word be PRODUCTIVE, and before you become productive you have to be rational (using your mind, reason). Are this idea the primary teaching of religion? (The primary teaching of religions are: Faith, sacrifice to God and others-altruism, collectivism and mysticism)

Do you think government institutions, priest, pastor, gurus (religionist) are productive people? What do they produce? Government extort and ask money from its citizens so the same with religionist. The difference between government is that the latter is voluntary while the other first is compulsory using legality. You may say that they give services. Can you call it service: distributing the money of other people to other people who do not have. Distribution of wealth is an evil idea. This is a violation of right to his own property (Property rights). THIS IDEA BREEDS CORRUPTIONS.

Now what is the religious teaching with regards to government? What is the religious morality about politics? You have to identify and clearly state it in order to challange it and even refute it.

And finally, WHAT IS THE ONLY PROPER FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT?



Greed is not only hunger for material things but emotions, feelings, relationships also.

hedwig
03-07-2008, 07:12 PM
I USED TO THINK THAT CORRUPTIONS AND CRIMINALITY
IN THE PHILIPPINES WERE CAUSED BY POVERTY
BUT RECENT EVENTS TELL ME THIS IS NOT TRUE
IT IS ONE THING TO SEE PEOPLE TURN INTO DRUG ADDICTS
PROSTITUTES, THIEVES AND MURDERERS BECAUSE
OF HUNGER AND POVERTY. BUT WHAT EXCUSE DO THESE
RICH, EDUCATED PEOPLE HAVE THAT COULD POSIBLY
EXPLAIN THEIR BIZARRE BEHAVIOR? AND TO THINK I WAS
ALWAYS SO RELIEVED WHEN PETTY SNATCHERS
GOT CAUGHT AND LOCKED AWAY IN JAIL BECAUSE
I NEVER FULLY REALIZED THAT THE BIG TIME
THIEVES WERE OUT THERE, MAKING THE LAWS
AND RUNNING THE COUNTRY. CAN IT GET ANY WORSE
THAN THIS..?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MANY CRIMINALS ROAMING AROUND
UNFETTERED AND LOOKING SMUG UNTIL NOW. THESE
CRIMINALS WEAR SUITS AND EXPENSIVE BARONGS
STRUT AROUND WITH CONFIDENCE OF THE RICH AND
FAMOUS, INSPIRE FEAR AND AWE FROM THE VERY CITIZENS
WHO VOTED THEM TO POWER, BEAR TITLES LIKE HONORABLE
SENATOR, JUSTICE, GENERALS AND WORSE PRESIDENT
OR RELATIVES AND HUSBAND OF THOSE HONORABLE
DAW..PEOPLE. IRONICALLY THESE LAWLESS INDIVIDUALS
PRACTICE LAW *MAKE OUR LAWS ENFORCE THE LAW* AND
I WONDER WHY OUR POLICEMEN ACT THE WAY THE
DO. THESE ARE THEIR LEADERS AND THE LEADERS OF
OUR NATION. ROBIN HOODLUM AND THIER BANDS OF MONEYMEN
THEIR MOTTO ROB THE POOR AND INOCENT, MODERATE THE GREED OF THE RICH...


I agree with that....

Jeff
03-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Before we can arrest corruption in the bigger picture, lets look into trivial issue of corruption unknowingly happened in our homes.

acpatagnan
03-12-2008, 11:41 AM
I will give an example situation of a corruption at home that also reflects the bigger picture. At home, a very inquisitive mind of a child asking his mother about the existence of supernatural being. "Mother where is God?" ask the child. Mother usually replied by signaling his hand up in the sky, "In heaven, my dear." The child looking up the sky and saw only clouds, blue sky and blurted out, " I don't see God, mother!". Mother replied, "Of course God cannot be seen!" "But mother how can we know that there is God?", the child asked again. "The bible said according to the priest or pastor that there is god ...and my dear just believe it okay?", the mother almost losing her patience said. "You have to go church today, its Sunday, you will know everything there in the bible study group". The child still mentally unsatisfied to the answers of his mother, said "yes mother, your the mother."

Based on that situation, the child's mind is acting naturally-asking questions about reality, a reality based on observation that the mind can identified. This is the nature of reason. Reason is the man's natural source of knowledge about things-of knowing things. The evidencesare all around us about nature and what we can do is observed it and our mind processed it to arrived at knowledge by the method of logic.

What is the error committed by the mother? He denied the capacity of the mind to know reality by resorting to the faith in the bible, faith to other like the priest and pastors. This is the start of corruption of the mind-by denying the capacity of the mind to know things-reality. Accepting the idea of God without any evidences or proof of its identity that can be found in nature by faith is an outright root cause of evil and corruption. Of course, the mother in the example is also the product of the corrupt idea and transmitted it to her child.

Now you will asked, Is the idea of God corrupt? If you use reason as the only source of knowledge, then the answer is YES. If you are true with your own nature act by your own nature which is your mind, then you will discover that the idea of God is corrupt.

Jeff
03-12-2008, 12:32 PM
I will give an example situation of a corruption at home that also reflects the bigger picture. At home, a very inquisitive mind of a child asking his mother about the existence of supernatural being. "Mother where is God?" ask the child. Mother usually replied by signaling his hand up in the sky, "In heaven, my dear." The child looking up the sky and saw only clouds, blue sky and blurted out, " I don't see God, mother!". Mother replied, "Of course God cannot be seen!" "But mother how can we know that there is God?", the child asked again. "The bible said according to the priest or pastor that there is god ...and my dear just believe it okay?", the mother almost losing her patience said. "You have to go church today, its Sunday, you will know everything there in the bible study group". The child still mentally unsatisfied to the answers of his mother, said "yes mother, your the mother."

Based on that situation, the child's mind is acting naturally-asking questions about reality, a reality based on observation that the mind can identified. This is the nature of reason. Reason is the man's natural source of knowledge about things-of knowing things. The evidencesare all around us about nature and what we can do is observed it and our mind processed it to arrived at knowledge by the method of logic.

What is the error committed by the mother? He denied the capacity of the mind to know reality by resorting to the faith in the bible, faith to other like the priest and pastors. This is the start of corruption of the mind-by denying the capacity of the mind to know things-reality. Accepting the idea of God without any evidences or proof of its identity that can be found in nature by faith is an outright root cause of evil and corruption. Of course, the mother in the example is also the product of the corrupt idea and transmitted it to her child.

Now you will asked, Is the idea of God corrupt? If you use reason as the only source of knowledge, then the answer is YES. If you are true with your own nature act by your own nature which is your mind, then you will discover that the idea of God is corrupt.

You know what's the problem of your story? The mother there never study bible by heart, very shallow. If only the mother knew the nature of GOD and his existence she can relate to her child clearly.

The problem with us parents, before we attempt to teach our children we should be knowlegeable, ready and capable enough to answer the trivial queries our child might ask, because this will be carrried by our child when they become matured. Like saying to them during Christmas Sta claus will come and put candies in their hanging stockings only if they show goodness, the real thing is its their father... Lets tell them the truth based in the knowledge that we know.

acpatagnan
03-23-2008, 05:52 AM
You know what's the problem of your story? The mother there never study bible by heart, very shallow. If only the mother knew the nature of GOD and his existence she can relate to her child clearly.

The problem with us parents, before we attempt to teach our children we should be knowlegeable, ready and capable enough to answer the trivial queries our child might ask, because this will be carrried by our child when they become matured. Like saying to them during Christmas Sta claus will come and put candies in their hanging stockings only if they show goodness, the real thing is its their father... Lets tell them the truth based in the knowledge that we know.

The question is how do we know things, how do we know about the facts of reality? The answer is by means of observation, by means of reason and logic. Look around can you find and identify God? By looking around, you only find real things like man, animals, plants, rivers, ocean, seas,mountain,valleys, sky, clouds, sun, moon, stars, planets and the man-made things. FAITH in supernatural is not the means of knowledge because there is no such things as supernatural. There is only natural things and the man-made things (transforming natural things to suit man's need for survival)

RELIGION DOES NOT TELL US EXACTLY THE TRUTH, THE REAL, OF WHAT IS REAL. To religion the real is beyond real, beyond natural. And this is out of reason and therefore false, bad and the VERY SOURCE OF THE CORRUPTION OF MAN'S MIND-his thinking ability.

agta
03-23-2008, 11:46 AM
The question is how do we know things, how do we know about the facts of reality? The answer is by means of observation, by means of reason and logic.
And by means of personal experience with Him. That personal experience is a privilege granted according only to the generosity of God.

acpatagnan
03-27-2008, 10:44 AM
And by means of personal experience with Him. That personal experience is a privilege granted according only to the generosity of God.

That is exaclty what faith is!!! Experience is nothing but feelings or whims. That is what the bible exactly says from the very beginning: God banned Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. God do not want you to use your MIND, YOUR THINKING POWER. God wants you to be a ROBOT, a very obedient unthinking robot. :)

The source of knowledge is not feelings or emotions. Our mind is our source of knowledge and nothing else. This is exaclty what religion says about the nature of man-the man is evil by nature (original sin) therefore his mind, his very own self (the man) is evil!!! That is the most evil fundamental teaching of the church-the very source of corruption of the mind.:)

agta
03-27-2008, 10:14 PM
That is exaclty what faith is!!! Experience is nothing but feelings or whims.
You seem to be making your own definitions to suit your whims. Your meaning of the word "experience" does not exist even in the imagination. Here is the meaning of the word experience online (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience) for your perusal:

Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience aligns it closely with the concept of experiment.

You make serious accusations against God based on your out-of-nowhere definition and limited experience.

acpatagnan
04-01-2008, 10:15 AM
If we want to know the root of the corruption in the government, it will involved the knowledge about the nature of government. How to trace the idea of government to ethics, to epistemology and metaphysics is a very difficult process but it can be done. And it was already done.

Politics or government is the expression or the application of ethics in social aspects. The dominant ethics in the Philippines is the christian ethics-a religious ethics. Thus there is a connection. From this setting we can discover why there is a corruption in the government. There is a religious ethics and there is an ethics based on science and reason. We have to know what is the essentials of religious ethics-the basic fundamentals. And also we have to know ethics based on reason or science. By doing so we can discover and learn.:)

To Agta,

The discussion of experienced or faith will be on the other thread: Faith vs. reason. You must learn what is the essence or the basic regarding faith-religious faith to be exact.:)

agta
04-01-2008, 09:25 PM
Politics or government is the expression or the application of ethics in social aspects. The dominant ethics in the Philippines is the christian ethics-a religious ethics. Thus there is a connection. From this setting we can discover why there is a corruption in the government. There is a religious ethics and there is an ethics based on science and reason. We have to know what is the essentials of religious ethics-the basic fundamentals. And also we have to know ethics based on reason or science. By doing so we can discover and learn.:)
Have you already discovered and learned them? If yes, then please share that to us so that we could use it for the good of society! "The dominant ethics in the Philippines is the Christian ethics"? What do you mean by that? Are you saying that majority of the people in the Philippines uphold the teachings of the Christian Church? If that is what you mean, then I would say that you are simply dreaming! All around you, you can witness various acts of rebellion against Christian teachings. Clearly, what you called "Christian ethics" is not dominant in the Philippines.


To Agta,

The discussion of experienced or faith will be on the other thread: Faith vs. reason. You must learn what is the essence or the basic regarding faith-religious faith to be exact.:)
I am always willing to learn. And I try to understand you as best I could. Just be likewise ready to face reality and learn.

Europa
04-01-2008, 09:53 PM
So what is the the debate all about now? Corruption in the government or about RELIGION and faith ?

agta
04-01-2008, 09:59 PM
So what is the the debate all about now? Corruption in the government or about RELIGION and faith ?
Acpatagnan mingles like "sagmaw" corruption in government and religion, even to the point of almost imputing religion as the cause of corruption.

Wowie
04-01-2008, 10:29 PM
Hi fellow forumers, I guess its time for me to speak my mind.

This debate is not clear as it should be, many of the posts are misleading and there are too many psychological punch line.
I think its best to carry out a debate where everyone can understand without needing to put himself into psychological state. Its always best if thoughts are carried out like laymans term where everyone can understand, it is also wise to stay on topic and prevent misleading thought.

Hi Sir Acpatagnan, your thoughts are great. But I was wondering, have you ever considered to share your thoughts in a direct and concise manner? I mean, your psychological explanation is direct and concise, but I guess its not applicable for the masses. :)

hedwig
04-03-2008, 05:46 PM
Hi fellow forumers, I guess its time for me to speak my mind.

This debate is not clear as it should be, many of the posts are misleading and there are too many psychological punch line.
I think its best to carry out a debate where everyone can understand without needing to put himself into psychological state. Its always best if thoughts are carried out like laymans term where everyone can understand, it is also wise to stay on topic and prevent misleading thought.

Hi Sir Acpatagnan, your thoughts are great. But I was wondering, have you ever considered to share your thoughts in a direct and concise manner? I mean, your psychological explanation is direct and concise, but I guess its not applicable for the masses. :)


... i think your'e right pareng wowei pero ok man ang presentation ni mr acpatagnan, but the only thing i observed is that some of his post is iether out of the main topic and sometimes make's confusions to some readers and somtimes cause a misleading.. anywaysss...

topic here is corrupption in the government.........

acpatagnan
06-14-2008, 05:08 PM
What is the root cause of corruption in the government?

Is man's nature as the root because he is corrupt? What is the nature of man?

Or is it the wrong idea of what is the proper function of the govenment?

Can we relate corruption of officials to the only and proper function of governemt?

What is the only proper function of the government?

Can we traced back to ethics-to know the proper function of government?

What is ethics? What is politics (government) in relation to ethics?

Is ethic the basis of political life of the member of society?

Why man need ethics?

These are the questions that can lead to the root cause of government corruption.:D

agta
06-16-2008, 02:23 AM
Corruption in government is not caused by ethics but by ETIK in government. You know what is etik. It is like a duck. It stands short. Everyone knows who the ETIK is in government, only about 4' 11" in height.

acpatagnan
06-17-2008, 08:48 AM
Corruption in government is not caused by ethics but by ETIK in government. You know what is etik. It is like a duck. It stands short. Everyone knows who the ETIK is in government, only about 4' 11" in height.


That's funny thing to say!!!:D

Then what is the ethical idea of that "duck"? That "ETIK" is the product of a religious educational system. Not only that etik but all the bunch of guys in the congress and the senate. And even you are the product of the same institution. :D

agta
06-17-2008, 08:49 PM
That's funny thing to say!!!:D

Then what is the ethical idea of that "duck"? That "ETIK" is the product of a religious educational system. Not only that etik but all the bunch of guys in the congress and the senate. And even you are the product of the same institution. :D
The way you talk here, it is obvious that you are a product of nothing. No legal institution teaches its students to steal or to be liars! Therefore, your conclusion that it must be the institution that is to blame is another proof of your "hilarious" if not crooked logic.:p

acpatagnan
06-20-2008, 03:03 PM
To Agta,

You know exactly that "Etik " is the product of our religious educational system. That is the fact that cannot be denied. I do not blame the educational system I just stated it as a fact. It is based on observation.

What we are talking here is about corruption. What is the root cause of corruption. If the ONLY function of the government is to protect our right to live (freedom to pursue our own happiness), then those billions of contract by the government is not the function of the government. What is purpose of ZTE contract? Subsidy, helping the poor is not the proper function of the government. Economic activities are NOT the proper function of the government. Government should not be involved in the economic activities of its citizen. They should not control how private individual produce material VALUE by legislating laws not conducive to freedom of doing business. Our government is a remnant idea of what is a government in the middle ages or in the dark ages.-church and state is one.:D Total separation of Church and state and total separation of economic and state. We do not have that today. It is the future if man still has a future.

The point is that religion is the infuencial idea behind every aspect of our government function--ALTRUISM:D

agta
06-21-2008, 10:10 PM
To Agta,

You know exactly that "Etik " is the product of our religious educational system. That is the fact that cannot be denied. I do not blame the educational system I just stated it as a fact. It is based on observation.

What we are talking here is about corruption. What is the root cause of corruption. If the ONLY function of the government is to protect our right to live (freedom to pursue our own happiness), then those billions of contract by the government is not the function of the government. What is purpose of ZTE contract? Subsidy, helping the poor is not the proper function of the government. Economic activities are NOT the proper function of the government. Government should not be involved in the economic activities of its citizen. They should not control how private individual produce material VALUE by legislating laws not conducive to freedom of doing business. Our government is a remnant idea of what is a government in the middle ages or in the dark ages.-church and state is one.:D Total separation of Church and state and total separation of economic and state. We do not have that today. It is the future if man still has a future.

The point is that religion is the infuencial idea behind every aspect of our government function--ALTRUISM:D
You do not want to blame the educational institution, but you are stating as a fact that educational institution is the cause of corruption in government!

Double talk!

acpatagnan
06-24-2008, 01:25 PM
You do not want to blame the educational institution, but you are stating as a fact that educational institution is the cause of corruption in government!

Double talk!

Observed it. We have senators, congressmen, president, official, who are intelligent and graduate of a prestigiouse religious school. What are the ideas taught in our schools, in humanities, in philosophy?

Of course, schools do not teach to steal money from the government. But the idea of what is the government should be? The proper function of the government applied in the written charter. Applied in the proper way to operate a government?

What is exactly the job of the President? To rule every aspect of our own individual life? Or just like a security guard--to protect us from force--let us free to pursue what is will make us happy, by our own effort?

For example, in a municipal area, what is exaclty the proper function of a Mayor? To distribute values (money) to the poor? To stop those who wants to do business profitably if you are the enemy during elections? Ask bribe or gift before you can start business :D Do some useless project?:Df


Remember the only proper function of the government-the protection of the individual citizem from physical force and free to pursue his own happiness.

agta
06-24-2008, 09:42 PM
Remember the only proper function of the government-the protection of the individual citizem from physical force and free to pursue his own happiness.It depends on what kind of government you are talking about. There are various kinds of government: Monarchial, Republican, Democratic, Dictatorial, or what not. When a government is run by individual who used power and influence to subvert the will of the people, then you do not talk of a government which is dutibound to protect the citizens. To that government, it is not the general welfare of the citizens that is paramount. It is the welfare of their individual families, how to amass wealth for themselves using the loaning power of the government, and selling the country piece by piece, that is of primary importance. That is the main function of that government, to make more wealthy those running it. Use the poor to cover-up their true agenda. Give P500.00 to teach of the poor, for example, but in the process, get P1,000.00 per head from the entire budget.

acpatagnan
06-28-2008, 10:11 AM
To Agta,

I am talking about the only proper function of the govenrment. We do not have that kind of government today which is the laizze-faire capitalism. A government not involve or do not interfere with the economic activities of each citizens. Just as the same with the separation of the church from the government.

If the only proper function of the government: the police, the military and the courts, there is no need of such activities like social welfare, subsidy to the poor, free services part of the big chunk of the government budget. All the government revenue in a form taxes will go to police, military and the courts ONLY.

It is the private citizen who will provide their own education, homes, food, clothing etc. and not the government. The role of the government is to protect you and everyone to pursue all those material values require for human life--from physical force, coercion, fraud. The basis of this idea is the nature of MAN'S RIGHT. (See my thread in Man's right)

In other words, the government is limited to that ONLY FUNCTION: police, military, and courts. Is this a christian or any religion idea of government?

Jeff
06-28-2008, 01:18 PM
It is a fact that corruption in the government is a way of life. It is called a part of the culture of the people that is institutionalized or became a habit. Bribeng a govenment officials and employees to make your transactions with them fast. Is it moral to give bribe to the government? Is it moral for the government to indulge in any economic activities. To answer these questions, we need to know what exactly is the ONLY PROPER FUNCTION OF THE GOVERNMENT in the life of each individual citizens. And before we can answer that we have to know exactly what is the nature of man and its relations to reality. We have to know exactly what is the nature of reality.

In short, what are the ideas being thought in our schools from elementary to colleges. Who are the most influencial in this area. Is it not the religious sector? Ateneo, la Salle, UST, and many others are under the influencial teaching of the religouos philosophy and ideas? What are the ideas being thought in these schools leads into actions in our culture and the kind of government we have.

Logically, to reform is to change ideas. To change ideas that are influencialy taught in our schools. And this is a very long and very tiring process BUT DOABLE AND ACHIEVABLE.

"To save the world is the simpliest thing in the world. All one has to do is think." -Leonard Piekoff

You are wrong of saying that corruption is a way of life. No, that is a choice a person will choose. Ay naku, mga tira mo iba, pampagulo eh. Alam mo di ako believe sayo. Laging sala mga tirada mo dito.

acpatagnan
07-01-2008, 10:16 PM
You are wrong of saying that corruption is a way of life. No, that is a choice a person will choose. Ay naku, mga tira mo iba, pampagulo eh. Alam mo di ako believe sayo. Laging sala mga tirada mo dito.

You should read it in the whole context.


When I say "a way of life" meaning by observation you will discover that it becomes a habit, a very bad habit. Another way to say it--a system of life. A habit or a system or a way of life can be change!!! How?
That is the idea I am trying to discuss or share or impart.

Yes, man has free will. He is free to choose. If it is your choice to bribe, to corrupt, to evade, you are free along with the consequences.

There are reasons why you have to bribe a government officials if you are a businessman. If we study it, it will lead you to philosophy.

Knowledge is interconnected. The foundation of knowledge is philosophy.
Metaphysics, epistemology are branches of philosophy and ethics (morality) is the application. Politics (government) is based on ethics(morality), the application of the branches of philosophy. That is briefly and simply stating.

Corruption is a topic related or connected to ethics (morality). To know the cause of corruption you have to dig in to ethics then to philosophy.

That is a very complex and huge subject that is difficult to discuss in a forum without any misunderstanding in the part of the reader.

Jeff I am not asking you to believe me. I want you to reason out. To stand based not on faith but on reason. To reason out is to use the mind or thinking. That is the habit that man must acquire in the first day of his schools days. (At an early age until you die):D:D:D

agta
07-02-2008, 09:59 PM
To Agta,

I am talking about the only proper function of the govenrment. We do not have that kind of government today which is the laizze-faire capitalism. A government not involve or do not interfere with the economic activities of each citizens. Just as the same with the separation of the church from the government.

If the only proper function of the government: the police, the military and the courts, there is no need of such activities like social welfare, subsidy to the poor, free services part of the big chunk of the government budget. All the government revenue in a form taxes will go to police, military and the courts ONLY.

It is the private citizen who will provide their own education, homes, food, clothing etc. and not the government. The role of the government is to protect you and everyone to pursue all those material values require for human life--from physical force, coercion, fraud. The basis of this idea is the nature of MAN'S RIGHT. (See my thread in Man's right)

In other words, the government is limited to that ONLY FUNCTION: police, military, and courts. Is this a christian or any religion idea of government?
Your dream would be true under a government which is duly constituted by the people themselves; where sovereignty not only exists in papers but truly resides in the people and all authority emanates from them. I am referring to the government whose officials were truly elected by the people, and not simply the making of Garci, Linta Bidol, Jocjoc Bolate, Esperon, Ermita, and their mercenaries.

acpatagnan
07-05-2008, 09:17 AM
Your dream would be true under a government which is duly constituted by the people themselves; where sovereignty not only exists in papers but truly resides in the people and all authority emanates from them. I am referring to the government whose officials were truly elected by the people, and not simply the making of Garci, Linta Bidol, Jocjoc Bolate, Esperon, Ermita, and their mercenaries.


The people elect officials(President, senator, congressmen). In other words we (the people) delegate to others the function of protecting us. The process of electing and counting the votes is under a separate agency or institution. If the people manning that agency, has a mentality of a limited function of a government, corruption will be out of their mind. On the side of the people electing officials, it is their responsibility to choose the right man not by means of receiving money from the candidate, but by objecive means. But that does not happened, whoever has the money, whoever is most popular, wins the election.

The set up of our present election process is under one agency under the power of the president. It is the President who select a commisioner of the Comelec. Now, it is the responsibiilty of the senator or the congressmen to study objectively and change the law, the set up of election process. Are they doing it.

As I said the people in the government are intelligent and educated. They are the product of our religious educational system. There is no doubt about that. Thus, we can say that corruption can be linked to our education-the system and the content-the philosophy of our education. What are they teaching from the start up to Ph.D. level?

It is the education that set up the mental attitudes of the people.:D