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Jeff
02-26-2008, 07:33 AM
Tanong: Atong makita sa sulat ni San Juan (Jn 1:5,21) nga nagaingon:
"Mga anak, likayi ninyo ang mga dios-diyos".
Mangutana ko, Ngano man magsimba kita sa diyos-diyos? Dili ba ang santos nga gibuhat sa tawo mao ang kahoy,
pilak og bulawan? Dili ba mao ang diyos-diyos nga inyong giyukboan matag domingo? -from: Rodolfo Baluyot


Sagot: Kaibigang Baluyot, Hindi ko na isinali ang iba pang texto sa inyong sulat sapagkat lahat ng yaon ay nauuwi sa
iisang katanungan : Bawal ba ang gumawa ng larawan ng mga santo?

Ang katanungang ito'y matanda na; ang wika nga ni Apyong ay "may balbas na" o kaya'y "lumang tugtugin" na ito. Katunayan mahigit nang isang
libong taon ngayon nang lumitaw ang tinatawag na mga "ïconoclastics", isang sektag wala ginawa kundi durugin
ang lahat ng mga larawan ng mga santo dahil sa bawal daw ayon sa bibliya. Pero ang mga ikonoclastiko ay wala na
ngayon, nangamatay nang lahat, samantalang ang Iglesya Katolika ay buhay pa rin. Sa kasaysayan ng Iglesya Katolika,
ito na ang isa sa pinakamabangis na naging kaaway na sa harap ng daigdig ay kinikilalang "mga walang bait, barbaro!".
Di kaya'y Kabilang kayo sa mga ito?

(Hinde kita masisisi kaibigan kung ganun na lang ang pagmamahal mo sa mga santong gawa nang kamay nang tao sapagkat iyon ang kinalakihan mo at yun ang nakagawian mo mula nung pagkabata hanggang ngayun at yun din ang alam mung tama dahil yun ang katuruan sa lipunan at pamayanan kung saan ikaw ay napabilang.)

Base sa Psychology, ang isang mali pag itinuro sa isang bata lalo na sa mga taong kanyang sinsandalan at malapit sa kanya ay nagiging tama. Tama ka na may mga”Iconoclast” dati kung saan ipinapatupad talaga nila yung tunay na batas nang panginoon at tama ka na yung mga yun ay lumipas na at bahagi na lang nang kasaysayan.

Kaibigan, matanong ko lang ang mga sumusunod at sana mabigyang linaw mo lang ang mga ito:



1) Mula sa kasaysayan nang mga propeta at mundo, mula kay Adan hanggang kay Hesus(SAK), anu ba ang mga itinuturo nang mga propeta? Itinuro ba nila sa tao ang gumawa nang rebulto at mga santo? Kung hinde bakit naging tama na ngayun? Ang relihiyon ba nang mga propeta at nang DIYOS ay nagbago? Itinuro ba ito ni Hesus? Kung ang sagot ay hinde bakit natin ginagawa ngayun? Alam kung marami kang paliwanag ayun sa iyong kaalaman at ayon sa inyong mga tagapagturo pero wala kang mamabasa na ang mga rebulto ay tagapamagitan. Ibig bang sabihin nung una pang panahon ay walang mga banal na tao tulad nang mga santo ninyo ngayun? Kung mayron bakit walang santo nung unang panahon?



2) Dahil sabi mo nga na yung mga iconoclast ay naghasik nang lagim upang sirain ang mga santo at rebulto, matanung kita kung aling relihiyon sa buong mundo na alam natin ngayun ang naghasik nang lagim nung unang panahon o nung unang mga siglo at kung ikaw ay hinde napabilang sa sektang ito ay magtago ka na. Hinde ba Iglesia Katolika na nun ay tinatawag na “CRUSADERS” o Christian Crusaders mula sa salitang “KRUS” kaya nabuo yung salitang iyan. Ano ang kanilang pakay? Kahit sa ayaw at sa gusto mo, kailangan tanggapin mo ang relihiyong kristiyanismo kundi ay kamatayan ang matatamo> Siguro di mo naman nakakalimutan yung ginawa ni Magellan sa mga ninuno mo na mga Muslim. Lalo na kay Lapu-Lapu na ipinaglalaban ang tunay na relihiyon.



Sino ang nagpapatay nang napakaraming mga tao na Hudyo nung World War II di ba isang kristiyano na si HITLER? Yung mga Buddhist ba ay naghasik nang lagim noon? Ang mga HINDU ba? Ang mga Muslim ba? Ang mga Mormons ba?May nabalitaan ka bang ibang sekta nang relihiyon o kaya ang Islam na naghasik nang lagim o nanukob nang mga lupain na dinadaan sa dahas? Ang Indonesia ba o ang Malaysia ay sinukob sa pamamagitan nang dahas? Bakit sila nagging maunlad na Islam country ngayun? Wala namang sumakop o sumagupa sa kanilang muslim.



Kung saan yun din ang unang ginawa ni Pablo(Paul) na noong una aySAUL ang pangalan. Sino ngayun ang Barbaro at sino ang walang bait?



3) May mababasa ka ba mula sa BIBLIYA na sinasabi mismo mula sa bibig ni Hesus(SAK) na siya ay DIYOS at sambahim mo siya? May mabasa ka mula sa katuruan ni PABLO na ginawa niyang Diyos si Kristo pero hinde iyon galing kay Kristo mismo o sa sino man sa kanyang mag apostol. Naging apostol ba si Pablo? Nakita o naabutan ba niya si Kristo? Nakasalamuha ba niya siya o nakapiling man lang? Alam mo ba kung ano dati si PABLO? Dahil lang sa isang “Vision” kuno ay nagbago ang kanyang pananampalataya at siyay nagging kristiyano bigla at mula nun ay pinalaganap na niya ang turong galing mismo sa kanya. Ang kristiano ngayun ay hinde galing kay kristo kundi galing sa katuruan ni PABLO. Kay instead na Christians dapat ay Paulians ang tawag sa mga sumusunod sa katuruan ni Pablo kasi ang mga pinagbabasihan ninyo ay puro turo ni PABLO. Hinde naman siya naging disipolo ni Kristo at hinde yan ang turo ni Kristo mismo.



Hinde dahilan ang” vision” o pangitain nang isang tao lang para bagohin mo ang laha tulad nang vision ni Pablot. Pero dahil maimpluwensiya si Pablo na dating Romano at marami din ang humanga at naniniwala kay Hesus(SAK) dahil sa kanyang mga milagro kaya madaling nakakuha nang simpatiya si PABLO sa madla nung unang panahon. At madali rin iyang nabago ang paniniwala nung mga tao nung panahong iyon dahil karamihan sa kanila ay mga pagano o “Pagan Romans”. Madaling nakabuo nang ARMY o CRUSADERS si PABLO kasi nung panahong iyon naghahanap ang mga tao nang tuwid dahil hirap na sila sa kasamaan nang mga ROMANO kaya sila nag aklas at sumama sa pangkat ni PABLO na ginagamit si Hesus(SAK) na kakampi.

Samakatuwid, sa 23 ka libro na sinusulat sa Bagong Tipan, halos lahat ay mula kay Pablo at 04 yung Apat na Ebanghelyo o Gospel ay mula sa hindi matukoy o kilalang “Author” na sina Matthew, Mark , Luke & John. Bakit hinde matukoy yung author? Kasi kung Bakit ninyo nilalagyan nang “According to Matthew?” “According to Mark”?.... Di ba kung ikaw ay nagsulat nang isang libro o isang lathain, kung sa iyo galling ay sasabihin mong may akda: Pontio Pilato or “by: Pontius Pilate. Kung ikaw ba ang nagsulat ay sasabihin mo bang “ Ayon kay Pontio Pilato? Tapos yun na ang gawin mung basehan sa iyong paniniwala?

Tama yung ginawa mung pagtatanggol sa iyong paniniwala sa pontong kinakampihan mo lang ang iyong tradisyon o iyong kinagisnang paniniwala dahil sa ngayun, iyon ang alam mung tama pero kung ikaw ay nagsasaliksik nang tunay at malaman mo ang kamalian nang iyong nakagisnan? Sila ba ang magliligtas sa iyo? Sila ba ang huhusga sa iyo sa huling araw? Bakit di mo gamitin ang iyong utak para alamin kung may katuturan ba itong mga pinagsasabi ko?

DeAtHOwLZY
02-26-2008, 11:25 AM
Hindi. Respetuhin natin ang paniniwala ng ibang tao.

Jeff
02-26-2008, 02:35 PM
The statues, and indeed all the other artefacts, big and small, which adorn our churches are aids to devotion. If anyone chooses to pray to them, that is up to them, but they are then practising idolatry, and not Christianity.

The statues remind us that our faith is based on the Incarnation. Christ took flesh; he took ‘human stuff’. In that way he can be represented in human form – which the Father (despite various attempts to show him as a bearded old man) cannot. Likewise the saints - Our Lady and all the others - lived the Christian life in human form, though they of course are not God. Representations of them remind us that the body is a ‘Temple of the Holy Spirit’. Thus we have relics of the saints in our altars – a material link between our own worshipping communities and the communities of faith of long ago.

agta
02-28-2008, 06:47 AM
What is prohibited is to worship idols. And what is an idol? An idol is one which is not God but is worshipped as God. Kaya nga tinatawag sa atin na "diyos-diyos".
Now, does the Catholic Church teach that the statues are gods? No! Therefore, since the statues in our churches are not considered gods, the Catholics are not worshipping idols.
And, is an statue or image automatically an idol? No. In fact, during the time that the Israelites were bitten by snakes in the desert, God commanded Moses to make a statue of a snake so that all those who were bitten by snakes who would then look at the snake statue got cured. And this incident in the desert was mentioned in the new testament to be the prefigure of Jesus Christ as he hangs on the cross. The snake statue was then a prefigure of the crucified Christ. That was not an idol.
And besides, consider the temple that God commanded Solomon to build. Consider the statues that God commanded to be constructed therein! Why were they not idols? Exactly because those statues were not worshipped as God.

Those who think that statues are idols are the ones who believe that those statues are gods. Therefore, they are the ones practicing idolatry, although in the negative way. But still, they believe those statues are gods. Hence, they break them to pieces.

Jeff
02-29-2008, 02:33 PM
Many people, many secta, religions, disagree the way catholics way of worshipping. Protestants is very vocal that catholics pray the statues, saints, relics. But for me not that I am a catholic, yes there are those catholics who really kneeled and pray these statues, but as time goes by there are more who understand the proper way of worshipping and that is the worshipping of a true and living God. Mga sina unang mga catholics lalo na sa panahon ng kastila ay talagang ganun ang kanilang ginagawa ang maling pamaraan, but this time its different, if you ask a certain catholic he/she will say they are not praying to the statues but to the living God.

agta
03-01-2008, 06:29 AM
Everything visible around us are images. Even the letters of the alphabet are images. Those who are strict about images contradict themselves when they use and read the Holy Bible because the figures or letters used in the bible are themselves images. They say that all images are idols, therefore, when they read letters they are in effect worshiping idols!:confused:

Jeff
03-12-2008, 12:21 PM
Everything visible around us are images. Even the letters of the alphabet are images. Those who are strict about images contradict themselves when they use and read the Holy Bible because the figures or letters used in the bible are themselves images. They say that all images are idols, therefore, when they read letters they are in effect worshiping idols!:confused:

In deed tama ka dyan!

hedwig
03-19-2008, 02:55 PM
.... sa ibang relehiyon ang interpretation nila sa mga santo o rebulto ay form of paganism na relegion at bawal sa kanila,,, mind you if you read the part of the bible in the old testament where you can find that image or rebulto ay ginamit upang mailigtas ang mga tao mula sa kagat ng mga ahas, nung time na maglakbay ang mga israelites, gumawa sila ng rebulto at inilagay sa pinakataas na bahagi upang kung sino man ang makagat ay titingin lang duon at sila at gagaling..

echo101
03-19-2008, 06:20 PM
Idols are not only statues that we call "rebulto"... Isang uri lang ng example ng idols ang mga rebulto... Idols are anything which hinders or blocks your attention from God. Just like some of the old testament people, they were worshiping something else instead of the true living God. An idol can be a person, maybe your BF/GF, or your barkada.. or it can be your hobbie or sport.. Theres nothing bad with them, ngiging bad lng if nwawalan kna ng time kay God dahil sa mga ito, and with, you're in great danger my friend.. Anything na hindi mo kayang i-give up pag hiningi sau ni God, diyu-dyusan mo un. Idols can be anything.. God is a jealous God. He hates idolatry because He wants to be our first love. He should be above any other relationships that we have. Remember the story of Abraham and Isaac, when God tested Abraham’s faith by asking Him to offer Isaac as a burnt offering, God tested Abraham if he would obey, God wanted to make sure that Isaac was not Abraham’s idol.

Now, regarding sa mga rebulto na yan, I only have few things to say. I am totaly against of them (mga rebulto or santo or whatever..) And sa mga nangangatwiran na “Eh bakit? image nman ni Lord un ahh?” Well, they have a big problem with their faith. If you really have strong faith in God, then hindi mo na kailangan ng rebulto sa harapan mo just to be able to pray or to connect to God. The word of God says in Hebrews 11:1 “Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”. I repeat “..evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN” Dapat kung may strong faith ka, you can connect to God in any situation, in any place, in any time. Did you know that the original wireless connection is prayer? Wireless connection to God. Prayer is communication with God, God alone and not to any other santos or santas, not even for the Virgin Mary. Opppss, i think this is another issue so i’ll just stop from here. Thanks for giving time to read. I pray that the Holy Spirit, the best teacher, really speaks into the hearts of everyone and enlighten our dim minds. :):):)

agta
03-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Now, regarding sa mga rebulto na yan, I only have few things to say. I am totaly against of them (mga rebulto or santo or whatever..) And sa mga nangangatwiran na “Eh bakit? image nman ni Lord un ahh?” Well, they have a big problem with their faith. If you really have strong faith in God, then hindi mo na kailangan ng rebulto sa harapan mo just to be able to pray or to connect to God.
That's right! "If you really have strong faith in God...." But IF the person cannot guarantee that he has strong faith, then he would need rebulto sa harapan niya, is that what you mean?

echo101
03-23-2008, 05:17 PM
That's right! "If you really have strong faith in God...." But IF the person cannot guarantee that he has strong faith, then he would need rebulto sa harapan niya, is that what you mean?

No! thats not what i mean... There is no acceptable reason for anyone to bow down to pieces of wood or stone... The word of God says in John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH."
We must worship Him using our spirit, not our flesh, so that means, not using our physical senses such as seeing.. For we are spirits, we're not flesh, flesh is just temporary.. We should not let our flesh lead us.. I think that verse would shut up the hard-headed people who keeps on reasoning out about thier rebultos just to justify thier wrong doings. If not, well they really have a big problem, and that's an issue between God and them, I'll just let God judge them when that day comes. All will be revealed soon.... so we must all be ready... :)

agta
03-23-2008, 09:22 PM
No! thats not what i mean... There is no acceptable reason for anyone to bow down to pieces of wood or stone...
Thanks for that clarification. Now, by "bowing down to pieces of wood or stone...", I guess you mean "worshiping the pieces of wood or stone as God", right? So, if a person bows down to a piece of wood or stone, or anything material for purposes other than worshiping it as God, then it is alright. Say for example, when a person enters a door which is too short for him, he has to bow down, and such act is not worshiping the door as God; or when a person kneels down to repair the wheel of his car, he is also not worshiping his car as God. Therefore, not all bowing down or kneeling automatically means "worshiping the thing as God". For as far as I know, no true Catholic worships rebultos as God!


The word of God says in John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH."
We must worship Him using our spirit, not our flesh, so that means, not using our physical senses such as seeing.. For we are spirits, we're not flesh,
What? We are spirits? I don't believe that!
In its context, what is meant by the word spirit in John 4:24? To answer this, let us listen to the conversation of Jesus and the woman. John 4:19-21, "The woman said to him, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you say that at Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father."

You see, Jesus and the woman were talking about the place where to worship God. And Jesus declared, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:21) "The hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

So, where shall the true worshippers worship the Father? Jesus said, in spirit and in truth. Why? Because God is spirit. (John 4:24) Clearly, the conversation had nothing to do with so-called "rebultos"/images. Further study would reveal that when Jesus said God is spirit what He meant is God could be everywhere. That is why the true worshippers could worship the Father everywhere.

echo101
03-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Thanks for that clarification. Now, by "bowing down to pieces of wood or stone...", I guess you mean "worshiping the pieces of wood or stone as God", right? So, if a person bows down to a piece of wood or stone, or anything material for purposes other than worshiping it as God, then it is alright. Say for example, when a person enters a door which is too short for him, he has to bow down, and such act is not worshiping the door as God; or when a person kneels down to repair the wheel of his car, he is also not worshiping his car as God. Therefore, not all bowing down or kneeling automatically means "worshiping the thing as God". For as far as I know, no true Catholic worships rebultos as God!

Of course understood na kung anong bowing down ung tinutukoy ko dun.. hallleeerr.. hehehe kidding aside. Oo nga they don't worship the rebulto as God, pero bkit meron pa silang mga rebulto? for what purpose? it's just plain to see that we don't really need those things... At eto pa, ok andun nko na hindi nila wino-worship ung rebulto, pero ung treatment nila sa mga un eh with all effort, like binibihsan ng mgagandang tela, ayaw magasgasan, pinupunasan ng panyo in believing that it would heal parts of thier body na pupunasan nila nung panyong un, eh this acts are almost equal to bowing to them... stuffs like that, na hinahayaan lng ng catholic church na gawin ng mga "deboto" not realizing na sa mga simple acts na un naililigaw nila ung mga tao.. That's what I like to call "laboring in vain".. mga pagpapagal na walang saysay, wlang kabuluhan... Efforts w/o benifits.



What? We are spirits? I don't believe that!

Ok, this a bit out of the topic pero i'll answer it anyway because this is something very important that only a few understands.. We are Spirits with a Soul and living in a Body. That is what a man/woman (as a creation) is made up of. The spirit is our true identity as a creation, dito sa spirit ntin, ibinuhos niya ung Kanyang (God) image ("we were created in His own Image and likeness") Second ang Soul which is composed of our mind (intelect) and emotion.. Yesss.. and yesssss! Spirit is different from Soul (read Hebrews 4:12.. I want you to look it up for yourself, that is only one of many verses that showed that Spirit is different from Soul) And last, the flesh, which is composed of our physical parts, the anatomy of a human body. The flesh is our earthly suit.. That is why when we die, we leave our bodies, for the flesh does not hold the true identity of a man/woman. Our Spirits shoul lead us in living our lives here on earth. How do we know that we are spirit-lead and not fleshly-lead? Well, the fruit of the spirit should be manifesting in our lives, (read Galatians 5:22-23) At ang Flesh pag pinanguna mo sa buhay mo, madami ding friuts yan, negative fruits, like anger, rage, hatred, immorality, deceit, lie, and marami pang iba.. Kasi ang flesh natin ay totaly kontra sa Spirit. But of course pagdating ng judgemnt day, He will look on the three parts, but He will give more attention to our spirits kasi nga un ung part that is exactly same as Him. Pag nakita nyang nangibabaw ang Spirit ntin when we were still on earth, then praise God we are saved. But for those who are LOVERS OF THIER FLESH... aaawwwwwooooooo... good luck sayoooooo.... Kaya nga we should be Spirit-lead.. wag nating hayaang lamunin tayo ng ating emosyon at laman, dahil kapahamakan lng ang idudulot nito stn. We should learn to conquer ourselves. May nabasa akong verse sa bible, I just forgot where to find it, it says, "conquering yourself is better than conquering a city" The Spirit can dictate our soul, what to think and what to feel, which results in an action. Same way the flesh can also dictate our Soul, what to think and what to feel, which also results in an action. Diba masarap ang bawal? ang flesh nagsasabing "cge lng, ok lng yan, masarap yan..." but a small voice inside of you is saying "wag.. wag.." thats the voice of the spirit that lives in us. What we think will affect our actions. So we must renew our minds to renew our actions (Romans 12 :2).. Evryday is a decision making... decide wether you would listen to your flesh or to your spirit.


In its context, what is meant by the word spirit in John 4:24? To answer this, let us listen to the conversation of Jesus and the woman. John 4:19-21, "The woman said to him, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you say that at Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father."

You see, Jesus and the woman were talking about the place where to worship God. And Jesus declared, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:21) "The hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

So, where shall the true worshippers worship the Father? Jesus said, in spirit and in truth. Why? Because God is spirit. (John 4:24) Clearly, the conversation had nothing to do with so-called "rebultos"/images. Further study would reveal that when Jesus said God is spirit what He meant is God could be everywhere. That is why the true worshippers could worship the Father everywhere.

I totally agree with you here, I don't see any contradiction from what I've said on my last reply.. It's true that true worshipers can worship God everywhere.. But true worshipers don't worship God in image. True worshipper bang masasabi ang isang taong pagnakakita lng ng santo saka lng maaalala si God? True worshiper ba ang isang taong feeling nya secured at holy ang bahay nya dahil puro santo ang nkadisplay sa loob? True worshiper ba ang taong hindi mkapagdasal kung walang gamit na rosary? at true worshiper nga ba ang taong gumagamit ng rosary??? True worshiper ba ang taong mkikipagsiksikan sa quiapo pra lng mkahipo sa nazareno na isang piraso lng ng kahoy, tapos pag hinanapan mo ng friut of the spirit eh ni gatiting wala kang mkita? Worshiping is not just about bowing down, praying, kneeling, crying, singing songs to him. Worship is not only on sundays. Worship is everyday, monday to saturday, and the sunday is just the culmination of your worship in the whole week. But thats not the case for people I like to call "Sunday-Morning Christians" Kristyano lng sila pag linggo, pagkatpos, wala na.. balik na nman sila sa dati. Panlabas lng sa kanila ang pagkakristyano, prang damit, pede nilang hubarin, at isuot ulit kung kailangan.. napakababaw.. how sad.. True worship is following His commandments.. Understanding of worship is offering our lives as a living sacrifice.. (Romans 12:1)

I'm sorry guys if I sounded preachy to you.. but my spirit is exploding of truths that is worth of sharing... I declare Godly wisdom to manifest in our lives.. God bless us all... :)

echo101
03-24-2008, 12:34 PM
"True worshipers don't worship God thru images.." I think this is much clearer.. let me just rephrase the third line on the last paragraph of the comment.

Jeff
03-25-2008, 09:23 AM
Our physical body is a corruptible body, its not the body that will go to heaven or hell after the day of Lord's judgement. Therefore, we use our physical body to praise him to serve him and manifest our love to him, but what commands the body is our spirit, with out spirit what is the physical body? It is like a dress hanging in a hanger waiting for a person to wear it. How will we talk and communicate to GOD? through spirit because GOD is not a man, he is a divine spirit. We praise him using our body to manifest through our spirit. I think all of us believe we have spirit, right? Sana tayong lahat mayron hehehe.

Now lets go back to the issue. May I ask all the catholics, do you (we) kneel and pray to the statues of all saints? or do we only follow their good deeds they did while they were still alive?

agta
03-27-2008, 06:08 AM
Oo nga they don't worship the rebulto as God, pero bkit meron pa silang mga rebulto? for what purpose? it's just plain to see that we don't really need those things... At eto pa, ok andun nko na hindi nila wino-worship ung rebulto, pero ung treatment nila sa mga un eh with all effort, like binibihsan ng mgagandang tela, ayaw magasgasan, pinupunasan ng panyo in believing that it would heal parts of thier body na pupunasan nila nung panyong un, eh this acts are almost equal to bowing to them... stuffs like that, na hinahayaan lng ng catholic church na gawin ng mga "deboto" not realizing na sa mga simple acts na un naililigaw nila ung mga tao.. That's what I like to call "laboring in vain".. mga pagpapagal na walang saysay, wlang kabuluhan... Efforts w/o benifits.
That is only your opinion:not realizing na sa mga simple acts na un naililigaw nila ung mga tao..
We Catholics understand what is in our own individual hearts. We know whom alone do we worship as God: Only God do we worship as God. We do not need to explain this to those who see things differently from us. When you laminate the image of your mother, when you clean your pictures, and perform other similar acts to such images, you mean to say you are already worshipping the image as God!




Ok, this a bit out of the topic pero i'll answer it anyway because this is something very important that only a few understands.. We are Spirits with a Soul and living in a Body. That is what a man/woman (as a creation) is made up of.
No, that is not true. The truth is: Man is both body and soul! That was what God created of man. A body and a soul. While we are physically alive, we have earthly bodies; but when we physically dies, we shall bear spiritual bodies ( "heavenly bodies" as distinguished from "earthly bodies").



It's true that true worshipers can worship God everywhere.. But true worshipers don't worship God in image.
That is right! True worshippers don't worship the image as God. But God could be everywhere.


True worshipper bang masasabi ang isang taong pagnakakita lng ng santo saka lng maaalala si God? True worshiper ba ang isang taong feeling nya secured at holy ang bahay nya dahil puro santo ang nkadisplay sa loob? True worshiper ba ang taong hindi mkapagdasal kung walang gamit na rosary? at true worshiper nga ba ang taong gumagamit ng rosary??? True worshiper ba ang taong mkikipagsiksikan sa quiapo pra lng mkahipo sa nazareno na isang piraso lng ng kahoy, tapos pag hinanapan mo ng friut of the spirit eh ni gatiting wala kang mkita? Worshiping is not just about bowing down, praying, kneeling, crying, singing songs to him. Worship is not only on sundays. Worship is everyday, monday to saturday, and the sunday is just the culmination of your worship in the whole week.
You know where the errors are in your assumptions? One basic error is your assumption that pagnakakita lng ng santo saka lng maaalala si God
The phrase saka lang makes your presumption erroneous. You have no basis to apply it to all. Yes, there maybe so-called "catholics" who seem to remember God only when they see the image of Christ. And such kind of "catholics" oftentimes end leaving the Catholic Church. Besides, if an image could make a person remember Christ, then great! What is important is man is helped to remember Christ.



I'm sorry guys if I sounded preachy to you.. but my spirit is exploding of truths that is worth of sharing... I declare Godly wisdom to manifest in our lives.. God bless us all... :)
You have nothing to be sorry about here! You are doing this based only on your understanding of what you think is true. Such act of yours is well appreciated. So, let us see the basis of what you believe without mixing into it you own opinion or personal judgments. Let us be objective here.

agta
03-28-2008, 10:31 PM
"True worshipers don't worship God thru images.." I think this is much clearer.. let me just rephrase the third line on the last paragraph of the comment.
Although that rephrased line is true, it certainly does not follow that those who worship God through an image is not a true worshipper! Don't you remember that Christ is the image of God? And Christians ought to worship Christ, the image of God.

Jeff
03-31-2008, 10:09 AM
Please take note that no one even those time can show us the face of our Jesus, his parents, disciples...etc. It's just a pure imagination of men. No exact replica. That is why, when we say it's just a reminder of our faith to Jesus or to the saints parang hindi rin ugma. Better pray by heart and with supplication direct to our creator.

agta
03-31-2008, 07:57 PM
Honestly, who do we remember when we see an image of a man hanging on the cross? For me, I remember no other but Jesus Christ. The face may not be His. But the person that is remembered upon seeing that image is no other than Jesus Christ.

Jeff
04-01-2008, 08:35 AM
I respect that opinion, but as the doctrine said in the Bible. It's plain and simple. Just go to the room close the door no one should hear and pray to God secretly.

agta
04-01-2008, 09:50 PM
I respect that opinion, but as the doctrine said in the Bible. It's plain and simple. Just go to the room close the door no one should hear and pray to God secretly.
That is written in Mathew 6:6. And it is figurative because if we should take it literally then man cannot pray everywhere. But no, man can pray everywhere. There was no room to close when Christ prayed in Gethsemani.

rgjam
01-28-2009, 12:20 AM
Sa mga bahay sambahan ng mga Catholics ay hindi naman basta decoration lang ang mga rebulto ah. They are objects of worship. They kneel down to them. They whisper prayers to them. What is it? Talking to a lifeless thing. That was what David referred to in Psalms 135:15-18

The figures in the Solomon Temple was a different scenario. They were only decorations, materials, or at the most a representation of heavenly beings that are not to be worshipped like the angels. So people in the temple never did whisper prayers to the temple images in the Old Testament.

The New Testament record is a 60-year or so of historical record of early christians, disciples of Jesus the Messiah. Never once mentioned in that record that images of saints, whether the martyrs of that period or of the Old Testament fathers, were prayed to or part of their worship.

To me, I will emulate the example laid by the disciples of the Lord Jesus - worshipping God without the aid of images.

Jeff
02-02-2009, 02:40 PM
That is written in Mathew 6:6. And it is figurative because if we should take it literally then man cannot pray everywhere. But no, man can pray everywhere. There was no room to close when Christ prayed in Gethsemani.

When we say figurative we meant exaggeration. If we refer to the scripture God never say any exaggerations. Lets take note that during the preaching of Jesus, he never applied a class room type of lectures infact we can read that he did his preaching in the open areas. What jesus did in Gethsemani is not a kind of showy stuff, disciples who attend to him sleep at that time. If we are going to pray the style of what Jesus did in Gethsemani is already obvious considering the present situation now. Very traffic, many people passing by, so noisy, pollution, it's no longer appropriate hehehe;) Tama lang talaga na sa room ka mag sarado ka then pray to GOD.

brategamete
02-03-2009, 09:29 PM
Exodus 20 (New International Version)

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.



Why dont catholics read carefully what the Lord says.


Who are we above the Bible, God's Word? The catholics believe with all their hearts that what they believe is God in worshipping idols. The Roman Catholic Church teaches and claim authority ABOVE the bible. The bible says that don't possess any idol in the form of anything, the RC Church teaches that it's ok as long as our hearts and minds are centered to God.


Asa man akong tuohan? God's Word or the RC's word?


Tubag.......!

Europa
02-04-2009, 10:06 AM
Ang Mga Larawan Ng Santo Ba'y Bawal?

ROMAN CATHOLIC AKO, NAKA LAKIHAN AT NA GISNAN KO NA ANG MAY SANTO SA BAHAY..HINDI AKO NAGBABASA NG BIBLIA (SORRY HA) BUT PAG PUMASOK KA SA BAHAY KO SASALUBONG SA IYO ANG NGITI NG SANTO NINO KO FACING TO MY MAIN DOOR..LARAWAN PAALA ALA LANG TULAD NG LARAWAN MO RIN, PALALA SA MGA TAONG NAKAKALIMOT..KANYA KANYANG PANIWALA LANG YAN..PARA SA AKIN HINDI BAWAL ANG LARAWAN NG MGA SANTO..ANG DAPAT BAWAL ANG LARAWAN NG MGA POLITIKO MASKI SAANG KALSADA NAG KALAT.

Europa
02-04-2009, 10:09 AM
at ang paniwala ko sa panginoon di ko binabasa kasi, nasa puso at diwa ko..maraming gumagamit ng pangalan ng diyos, bawat litok..but..maka diyos bang talaga?

agta
02-04-2009, 10:18 PM
Exodus 20 (New International Version)

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.



Why dont catholics read carefully what the Lord says.


Who are we above the Bible, God's Word? The catholics believe with all their hearts that what they believe is God in worshipping idols. The Roman Catholic Church teaches and claim authority ABOVE the bible. The bible says that don't possess any idol in the form of anything, the RC Church teaches that it's ok as long as our hearts and minds are centered to God.


Asa man akong tuohan? God's Word or the RC's word?


Tubag.......!
Kaisog ba oroy!

Please read again what you have quoted above.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol..."

Unsa may "idol" sa binasaya beh? "Diyos-diyos"! Don't you know that an image or statue is not inherently "Diyos-diyos"? You should know that, or else even the statue of Dr. Jose Rizal would be considered as an idol. Your family pictures would be idols too; your post and my post in this thread would be idols too because letters of the alphabet are images.

So, when is an image or statue considered an idol? They are considered idols when they are worshipped as gods! That is what Almighty God prohibits: To worship as gods images or statues.

Now, do Catholics worship as gods the images and statues? Absolutely NO!

So, kinsa man imo toohan: Ang namasangil o ang gipatakaan ug pasangil?

Pili....

Europa
02-05-2009, 01:42 PM
Mangorog man pod ta ninyo sa nerbyos oi, :p isog man mangutana..basa na lang ko..basta ako may Santo sa balay..ija ija..aho aho na lang ta..Sige continue mo dinhi lantugi..

spartacus
02-05-2009, 08:14 PM
In faith, kinahanglan dili ta mag speculate, dili ta mag tigmu-tigmo, dili ta mag uru-imbento. We have to base our faith to what is written in the bible.

Ask your pastors, ministers or priests if you don’t have time reading your bible. Listening too is one of the virtues taught to Christians. Kung dili sila available click the links below. Just be open-minded and reasonable. I hope you find it sensible too.

http://www.theoldpath.tv/videos.aspx?file=live&classid1=DQa3482JKFWeIOYPDSSD324444lanvsoe12312

http://www.truthcaster.com/#

http://www.untvweb.com/

agta
02-06-2009, 04:22 AM
In faith, kinahanglan dili ta mag speculate, dili ta mag tigmu-tigmo, dili ta mag uru-imbento. We have to base our faith to what is written in the bible.

Ask your pastors, ministers or priests if you don’t have time reading your bible. Listening too is one of the virtues taught to Christians. Kung dili sila available click the links below. Just be open-minded and reasonable. I hope you find it sensible too.

http://www.theoldpath.tv/videos.aspx?file=live&classid1=DQa3482JKFWeIOYPDSSD324444lanvsoe12312

http://www.truthcaster.com/#

http://www.untvweb.com/
That's right! I just hope you abide with your own suggestion.
Ug in addition, kinahanglan dili ta magpataka pamasangil.

You know what, spartacus, bisan gani kanang ngalan "Ang Dating Daan" inimbinto raman na! Wala na sa bible, kay ang toa didto :"Mga Dating Daan". Sa English pa: The Old Paths. Plural. Pero ang gi imbinto ni Soriano, gihimong "The Old Path". Ang plural gihimong singular.

Sensible diay basta siya magbawas sa nakasulat sa bible noh? Walang dagdag walang bawas daw! Sinungaling siya!

spartacus
02-06-2009, 02:22 PM
agta,

i am not a member of that group. i don't want and i am not in the position to argue with your comments about them.

anyway, the presiding minister has a program "itanong mo kay soriano" why don't you ask or reason out with him. i belive he's the most accessable christian religious leader in the world, if not in the phils.

as i said, just please be open minded and reasonable. i believe he is just exposing the truth that is in the bible. of course, naa gyud maigo.

but we have to see both sides of the coin.

just for a watch (in youtube), this is one of the interesting debates with eli soriano and a catholic faithful :D :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeiXTz6zGBs

(link is one of 12 parts...watch and learn) :D :D

echo101
02-06-2009, 02:57 PM
Ang Mga Larawan Ng Santo Ba'y Bawal?

ROMAN CATHOLIC AKO, NAKA LAKIHAN AT NA GISNAN KO NA ANG MAY SANTO SA BAHAY..HINDI AKO NAGBABASA NG BIBLIA (SORRY HA) BUT PAG PUMASOK KA SA BAHAY KO SASALUBONG SA IYO ANG NGITI NG SANTO NINO KO FACING TO MY MAIN DOOR..

Certainly a "smiley-faced sto. niño" will not and cannot save anyone from the fires of hell..


Kanya-kanya tayong paniniwala

Oo nga totoo yun, but what is your assurance that your belief is true and righteous in the sight of God? especially if the bible does not back it up? what assurance? tradisyon? kaugalian? kinagisnan? nakasanayan? I tell you, anything not founded in the word of God is senseless.. that's why it is necessary for those who know to correct them... Take our freedom for example, we are free to do anything we want to do, but not all that we want to do is good for us, (Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16) so it's the duty of somebody to say "Hey, that's not right stop that.." Suppose if you see a man about to fall on a bridge, would you just stare and watch him die?


at ang paniwala ko sa panginoon di ko binabasa kasi, nasa puso at diwa ko..maraming gumagamit ng pangalan ng diyos, bawat litok..but..maka diyos bang talaga?

If truly God is inside of you, it should manifest outward, in our minds, words and actions. The fact that you said earlier that you're not fond of reading the bible, contradicts your what you said na si God ay nasa puso at diwa mo. A true lover of God also (kung hindi man agad sa umpisa, but eventually) loves to read His words. That's how you'll know who are fakes, the Lukewarms as the book of revelations calls them (neither hot nor cold, read it in Revelations malalaman nyo kung anu gagawin ni God sa mga lukewarms).. As the the bible says very clearly, "You will know them by their FRUITS". I dare you to answer your own question...

I know this may sound really offending in your part, but it's just the truth.. God's word is sharper than a two-edged sword..

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

it really hurts. peace and God bless...

Europa
02-06-2009, 03:16 PM
I am not offended of what you said.BUT Thank you..Ito na ako so hindi ako mag bago maski ano pang sabihin mo. Tumanda na rin ako ng ganito, at may pinagka tandaan naman..So be it..Continue what you believe, and I will never change because one peole told me so that this is right and this is wrong, that he is rigth and I am not..que sera sera, sorry Miss Hummingbird I borrow your word..I will be whatever will be, without stressing of what other peoples opinion..Peace and GOD BLESS YOU too. Continue reading bible and share with us here in forum what have you learn and benefits from it..Its nice to read some of it malay mo matoto rin ako sa iyo, sa tanda kong ito..oh di ba masaya.

Europa
02-06-2009, 03:19 PM
If truly God is inside of you, it should manifest outward, in our minds, words and actions. The fact that you said earlier that you're not fond of reading the bible, contradicts your what you said na si God ay nasa puso at diwa mo. A true lover of God also loves to read His words. That's how you'll know who are fakes, the Lukewarms (hindi malamig, hindi rin mainit, read it in Revelations malalaman nyo kung anu gagawin ni God sa mga lukewarms).. As the the bible said, "You will know them by their FRUITS". I dare you to answer your own question...

AMEN...no further answer, Continue of what you believe..No argument from me

echo101
02-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Well, I am not here naman para mamilit or something, it is not my job to convince people, it's the Holy Spirit's job, but still we ourselves hold the final decision, we have a free will, I just hope we use that will in accordance to the will of God, thanks you so much for your consideration... Gob bless again!!! ^_^

agta
02-06-2009, 06:12 PM
agta,

i am not a member of that group. i don't want and i am not in the position to argue with your comments about them.

anyway, the presiding minister has a program "itanong mo kay soriano" why don't you ask or reason out with him. i belive he's the most accessable christian religious leader in the world, if not in the phils.

as i said, just please be open minded and reasonable. i believe he is just exposing the truth that is in the bible. of course, naa gyud maigo.

but we have to see both sides of the coin.

just for a watch (in youtube), this is one of the interesting debates with eli soriano and a catholic faithful :D :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeiXTz6zGBs

(link is one of 12 parts...watch and learn) :D :D

Mabuti naman you are not a member of that group. But you advertised here their program. May be you are not yet a member, just planning to be one?

I have tried many times to ask questions to Mr. Soriano through the cel nos. that they advertised. And even through their web site. I never got an answer from any of them.

Let your friend who maybe an ADD participate in this forum and let us see where the discussion would bring out the truth.

agta
02-06-2009, 06:15 PM
If truly God is inside of you, it should manifest outward, in our minds, words and actions. The fact that you said earlier that you're not fond of reading the bible, contradicts your what you said na si God ay nasa puso at diwa mo. A true lover of God also loves to read His words. That's how you'll know who are fakes, the Lukewarms (hindi malamig, hindi rin mainit, read it in Revelations malalaman nyo kung anu gagawin ni God sa mga lukewarms).. As the the bible said, "You will know them by their FRUITS". I dare you to answer your own question...

AMEN...no further answer, Continue of what you believe..No argument from me

That's great Europa! May your tribe further increase!
Good Luck and God Bless!

agta
02-06-2009, 06:46 PM
Certainly a "smiley-faced sto. niño" will not and cannot save anyone from the fires of hell..


Here is a categorical syllogism:

Man eats;
The picture on the wall is man;
Therefore, the picture on the wall eats.

Please tell me! What rule of categorical syllogism was violated?

That is the logic you followed in saying that, a "smiley-faced sto. niño" will not and cannot save anyone from the fires of hell..

And that logic violates the rules.

spartacus
02-06-2009, 11:38 PM
Mabuti naman you are not a member of that group. But you advertised here their program. May be you are not yet a member, just planning to be one?

I have tried many times to ask questions to Mr. Soriano through the cel nos. that they advertised. And even through their web site. I never got an answer from any of them.

Let your friend who maybe an ADD participate in this forum and let us see where the discussion would bring out the truth.

agta,

to be honest with you, i'm in the process of listening to their doctrines. i'm just impressed with the teachings that's why i'm trying to share it to anyone.

if there's a will there's a way. try to pose your questions here:
http://www.theoldpath.tv/#
i hope you'll share whatever is the outcome of your question in this forum.

i wish i knew one ADD member who could respond to your call to participate in this forum. don't worry, god will provide.

btw, maybe you want to share what congregation you belong.

agta
02-07-2009, 05:29 AM
agta,

to be honest with you, i'm in the process of listening to their doctrines. i'm just impressed with the teachings that's why i'm trying to share it to anyone.

if there's a will there's a way. try to pose your questions here:
http://www.theoldpath.tv/#
i hope you'll share whatever is the outcome of your question in this forum.

i wish i knew one ADD member who could respond to your call to participate in this forum. don't worry, god will provide.

btw, maybe you want to share what congregation you belong.
So you are in the process of listening to them. As you go along with that process, you will notice that most of their teachings are centered on attacking the teachings of the Catholic Church.

When that happens, I invite you to share in this forum every attack they have against the Catholic Church which seem convincing to you. We will try to answer those various attacks before you finally decide to join them. It is good to hear the Catholic side of the question before jumping into a decision.

Good Luck and God Bless!

echo101
02-07-2009, 03:32 PM
Here is a categorical syllogism:

Man eats;
The picture on the wall is man;
Therefore, the picture on the wall eats.

Please tell me! What rule of categorical syllogism was violated?

That is the logic you followed in saying that, a "smiley-faced sto. niño" will not and cannot save anyone from the fires of hell..

And that logic violates the rules.

Aray.. teka, nag-nosebleed ata ako.. :(

Eh ano naman ba ang laban ng logic sa mga sinasabi ng bible?

agta
02-07-2009, 08:06 PM
Aray.. teka, nag-nosebleed ata ako.. :(

Eh ano naman ba ang laban ng logic sa mga sinasabi ng bible?
Hindi sila magkaaway.
They support each other though human logic is limited to humans. If man has no logic, man would not understand the bible. But when the bible says something beyond logic, so logic must bow to revealed truths.

spartacus
02-07-2009, 10:50 PM
So you are in the process of listening to them. As you go along with that process, you will notice that most of their teachings are centered on attacking the teachings of the Catholic Church.

When that happens, I invite you to share in this forum every attack they have against the Catholic Church which seem convincing to you. We will try to answer those various attacks before you finally decide to join them. It is good to hear the Catholic side of the question before jumping into a decision.

Good Luck and God Bless!

ta-ags, :D

i believe ADD is not attacking any body. they are just into exposing the biblical truth. they are just reading what is written in the bible anyway.

example: one religious group believes that jesus christ is a man. so what does the bible tell about this doctrine?

how about baptizing an infant?:D what does the bible say about it?

about "once save always save" doctrine? etc...etc...

i believe these are not attacks as what you said but rather telling or exposing what the bible say to people. this is a good oppurtunity to others to think and reconsider whether their faith has really biblical or gospel basis.

di na ta pailad uy....kinahanglan mag usisa sab ta...baman bitaw kung naa tay gusto maangkon ayohun gyud ug pili....nya pag abot sa kaluwasan, magpataka lang ta?...kung unsay sulti ni brader, ni pastor ug ni pader sunod na lang dayon?...kabuang??.......never again!:D

anyway, i hope you try to pose your questions to the link i provided to you. any feedback?:)

agta
02-08-2009, 08:41 AM
[SIZE="4"]ta-ags, :D

i believe ADD is not attacking any body. they are just into exposing the biblical truth. they are just reading what is written in the bible anyway.
Really, they are just reading the bible? I hope you can convince one ADD to participate in this forum so you would see how they attempt to fool the people.


[SIZE="4"]example: one religious group believes that jesus christ is a man. so what does the bible tell about this doctrine?

how about baptizing an infant?:D what does the bible say about it?


Ok, let us read from the bible and see if Jesus is not a man. In John 8:4O (http://bible.cc/john/8-40.htm) this is written, "But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham would not have done that." Unsa si Cristo sa nakasuwat sa bible? "a man". Pero unsaon man na pag basa ni Soriano? "a god". Patuyok tuyokon ang olo sa iyang audience aron ang nakasuwat nga "man" mahimo nang "god" sa panan-aw.

How about baptism of infants?

OK, unsa ba ang equivalent sa baptism of infants karon sa panahon ni Cristo?
Sa panahon ni Cristo and equivalent ni ani mao ang gitawag nga "circumscission". Tanan mga Jews sa panahon ni Cristo required gyod nga mo undergo ug circumcission aron ma counted as member sa ila "religion".

Unsa ang nahisuwat sa bible mahitungod niani? Naa sa Luke 2:21 (http://bible.cc/luke/2-21.htm) ato mabasa, "After eight days had passed, the infant was circumcised and named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb." Pila palang edad ni Cristo sa siya gi bunyagan sa ngalan nga "Jesus"? Ingon sa bible, "eight (8)" days old.

O sigi, pagbantay ta sa mga manloloko nga nag libot libot karon pagpasalaag sa mga tawo.

brategamete
02-08-2009, 09:27 PM
Kaisog ba oroy!

Please read again what you have quoted above.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol..."

Unsa may "idol" sa binasaya beh? "Diyos-diyos"! Don't you know that an image or statue is not inherently "Diyos-diyos"? You should know that, or else even the statue of Dr. Jose Rizal would be considered as an idol. Your family pictures would be idols too; your post and my post in this thread would be idols too because letters of the alphabet are images.

So, when is an image or statue considered an idol? They are considered idols when they are worshipped as gods! That is what Almighty God prohibits: To worship as gods images or statues.

Now, do Catholics worship as gods the images and statues? Absolutely NO!

So, kinsa man imo toohan: Ang namasangil o ang gipatakaan ug pasangil?

Pili....


Let me just clarify here...

The argument is not emotional. The argument is Biblical. Attacks? No! You are attacking the Bible. I'm arguing not with your philosophy nor your logic nor your knowledge of rationalism.

I'm asking if you really believe what the Catholic Church is teaching about the passage in Exodus 20:3-5. Here's the variant translations of the original hebrew of this passage:

Exodus 20:3-5 (King James Version)

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


Exodus 20 (Young's Literal Translation)


3`Thou hast no other Gods before Me.
4`Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth.
5Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me,



Exodus 20 (Douay Version-catholic version)



The ten commandments.
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:



Cebuano (1917), Exodus 20

3 Dili ka magbaton ug lain nga mga dios sa atubangan ko.
4 Alang kanimo dili ka magbuhat ug usa ka larawan nga linilok bisan sa dagway sa bisan unsang butanga nga atua sa itaas sa langit, kun dinhi sa ilalum sa yuta, kun sa anaa sa tubig sa ilalum sa yuta:
5 Dili mo iyukbo ang imong kaugalingon kanila, ni mag-alagad kanila; kay ako si Jehova nga imong Dios, mao ang Dios nga abughoan, nga nagadu-aw sa pagkadautan sa mga amahan sa ibabaw sa mga anak, sa ibabaw sa ikatolo ug sa ibabaw sa ikaupat ka kaliwatan sa mga nagadumot kanako,


------


Ang akong punto simple lamang:

NAKAHIBALO BA ANG DIOS SA IYANG SUGO NGA USA SIYA KA ABOGHOAN NGA DIOS?

NAKAHIBALO BA SIYA SA IYANG PULONG NGA IYANG BUOT IPASABOT LARAWAN, ESTATUWA, IMAGE O KON DAGWAY SA BISAN UNSA NGA BUTANG SA YUTA O SA LANGIT?


Ang crucifix og mga rebolto kang kinsa o diin gikan ni nga hulagway. Gikan ba ni sa imperno o sa langit? Ang tubag: Sa yuta.


Nagtuo man gyud ning mga naa sa affirmative side nga kining mga religious images nga gina acceptar sa ilang simbahan, mga larawan jud ni sa ilang santo? Virgin mary? Jesus? Sato. Nino?



How are you sure these are the images of Jesus and the saints? Walay camera sa unang panahon... If you dont believe that you are violating the second commandment of God, then you may be as well as deceived with these images. Because they are not their own profile. They were just artist's creation, basing their wilders imaginations.


So the Bible is simple. "Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image, nor any likeness." RC might teach 'ah kay dili man ni graven image!' The context here is "any likeness". Graven images were the pictures of MOses' times.



What you believe is against God's Word.




Kaisog ba oroy!

Please read again what you have quoted above.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol..."

Unsa may "idol" sa binasaya beh? "Diyos-diyos"! Don't you know that an image or statue is not inherently "Diyos-diyos"? You should know that, or else even the statue of Dr. Jose Rizal would be considered as an idol. Your family pictures would be idols too; your post and my post in this thread would be idols too because letters of the alphabet are images.

So, when is an image or statue considered an idol? They are considered idols when they are worshipped as gods! That is what Almighty God prohibits: To worship as gods images or statues.


Nia ang tinood nga meaning sa "idol" : fr dictionary.com


i·dol
http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/ahd4WAV/I0023700/idols) (īd'l)
n.



An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.


One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.




Here is the theological meaning of idolatry:


Idolatry

image-worship or divine honour paid to any created object. Paul describes the origin of idolatry in Rom. 1:21-25: men forsook God, and sank into ignorance and moral corruption (1:28). The forms of idolatry are, (1.) Fetishism, or the worship of trees, rivers, hills, stones, etc. (2.) Nature worship, the worship of the sun, moon, and stars, as the supposed powers of nature. (3.) Hero worship, the worship of deceased ancestors, or of heroes. In Scripture, idolatry is regarded as of heathen origin, and as being imported among the Hebrews through contact with heathen nations. The first allusion to idolatry is in the account of Rachel stealing her father's teraphim (Gen. 31:19), which were the relics of the worship of other gods by Laban's progenitors "on the other side of the river in old time" (Josh. 24:2). During their long residence in Egypt the Hebrews fell into idolatry, and it was long before they were delivered from it (Josh. 24:14; Ezek. 20:7). Many a token of God's displeasure fell upon them because of this sin. The idolatry learned in Egypt was probably rooted out from among the people during the forty years' wanderings; but when the Jews entered Palestine, they came into contact with the monuments and associations of the idolatry of the old Canaanitish races, and showed a constant tendency to depart from the living God and follow the idolatrous practices of those heathen nations. It was their great national sin, which was only effectually rebuked by the Babylonian exile. That exile finally purified the Jews of all idolatrous tendencies. The first and second commandments are directed against idolatry of every form. Individuals and communities were equally amenable to the rigorous code. The individual offender was devoted to destruction (Ex. 22:20). His nearest relatives were not only bound to denounce him and deliver him up to punishment (Deut. 13:20-10), but their hands were to strike the first blow when, on the evidence of two witnesses at least, he was stoned (Deut. 17:2-7). To attempt to seduce others to false worship was a crime of equal enormity (13:6-10). An idolatrous nation shared the same fate. No facts are more strongly declared in the Old Testament than that the extermination of the Canaanites was the punishment of their idolatry (Ex. 34:15, 16; Deut. 7; 12:29-31; 20:17), and that the calamities of the Israelites were due to the same cause (Jer. 2:17). "A city guilty of idolatry was looked upon as a cancer in the state; it was considered to be in rebellion, and treated according to the laws of war. Its inhabitants and all their cattle were put to death." Jehovah was the theocratic King of Israel, the civil Head of the commonwealth, and therefore to an Israelite idolatry was a state offence (1 Sam. 15:23), high treason. On taking possession of the land, the Jews were commanded to destroy all traces of every kind of the existing idolatry of the Canaanites (Ex. 23:24, 32; 34:13; Deut. 7:5, 25; 12:1-3). In the New Testament the term idolatry is used to designate covetousness (Matt. 6:24; Luke 16:13; Col. 3:5; Eph. 5:5).



Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

jalmz
02-08-2009, 09:51 PM
maayo ni ipatubag sa dating daan. hehehe

agta
02-08-2009, 10:49 PM
I'm asking if you really believe what the Catholic Church is teaching about the passage in Exodus 20:3-5.
What specific teaching of the Catholic Church are you referring to? Show it here so I can answer your question of whether I really believe it.


Ang akong punto simple lamang:
NAKAHIBALO BA ANG DIOS SA IYANG SUGO NGA USA SIYA KA ABOGHOAN NGA DIOS?

What do you think? Naa kaha dili nahibaloan ang Dyos? He is omnipotent!


NAKAHIBALO BA SIYA SA IYANG PULONG NGA IYANG BUOT IPASABOT LARAWAN, ESTATUWA, IMAGE O KON DAGWAY SA BISAN UNSA NGA BUTANG SA YUTA O SA LANGIT? Boot ba nimo ipasabot nga sa Exodus 20:3-5 totally gibawal sa Diyos ang paghimo ug bisan unsa nga larawan o rebulto? O dili ba kaha ang gibawal mao ang paghimo ug diyos-diyos (idol)?

Nia ang Exodus 20:3-5:
Exodus 20:3-5 (http://www.luc.edu/faculty/pmoser/idolanon/Exodus20.html)
"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...."

Claro diha nga ang gibawal mao ang paghimo ug diyos-diyos or larawan ug rebulto nga ilhon nga dyos. Sakto ba ni nga pagsabot? Sakto ni kay gani ang Dyos nagsugo man pagpahimo ug statwa sa bitin aron ang mga Israelitas nga mapaakan ug bitin maolian kun motan-aw sa statwa sa bitin.
Nia sa Numbers 21:8-9 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/num021.htm):
8 "And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."
So, claro nga dili totally gibawal ang statwa o rebulto. Ang Dyos paman gani ang napasi ugda pagpahimo ug estatwa. Ngano gitugot man kadto? Kay wala man kadto nila ilha nga dyos, mao nga kadto nga statwa dili diyos-diyos; dili "idol".

Dinhi lang usa ko kutob. At least now may idiya kana asa padowong kining atong surosugilanon. Hagpaton nato usag-usag kining imong mga nahasulan bahin sa pagtolon-an Catolico.

spartacus
02-09-2009, 12:31 AM
Really, they are just reading the bible? I hope you can convince one ADD to participate in this forum so you would see how they attempt to fool the people.

Ok, let us read from the bible and see if Jesus is not a man. In John 8:4O (http://bible.cc/john/8-40.htm) this is written, "But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham would not have done that." Unsa si Cristo sa nakasuwat sa bible? "a man". Pero unsaon man na pag basa ni Soriano? "a god". Patuyok tuyokon ang olo sa iyang audience aron ang nakasuwat nga "man" mahimo nang "god" sa panan-aw.

O sigi, pagbantay ta sa mga manloloko nga nag libot libot karon pagpasalaag sa mga tawo.

ta-ags, :D

calm down my friend. morag nang butang-butang ka bro. if i observed the same as you said, i'll conform with you right away. i never tolerate somebody fooling or insulting my intelligence. pero i never observed what you said. in fact the bible verses are really flashed on the screen for anyone to read along.

kanang verse nga imong gi-quote, punch line na sa mga ning tou nga si JC tawo. i already have my understanding about that. i will not argue with you. but let me tell you, JC also claims that he is a bread, a rock, a worm..etc. so, ano ba talaga kowya?:D

what im trying to say is that, let's not just pick one verse then conclude the matter. kayab, ing-ana diay?...limbaroy na...hehe...karon kay ning ingon pod si hesus nga kuno siya tinapay, di, tinapay sab siya? nya sa lain pang verse ning ingon bato pod kuno siya, di, bato sab siya?..matud pa sa morus: igsu..makalibog..

di nala ko motubay pas imong giingon mahitungod sa bunyag...hehehe duda ko duh...igsu..makalibog gihapon..:D

agta
02-09-2009, 06:29 PM
ta-ags, :D

calm down my friend. morag nang butang-butang ka bro. if i observed the same as you said, i'll conform with you right away. i never tolerate somebody fooling or insulting my intelligence. pero i never observed what you said. in fact the bible verses are really flashed on the screen for anyone to read along.

kanang verse nga imong gi-quote, punch line na sa mga ning tou nga si JC tawo. i already have my understanding about that. i will not argue with you. but let me tell you, JC also claims that he is a bread, a rock, a worm..etc. so, ano ba talaga kowya?:D

what im trying to say is that, let's not just pick one verse then conclude the matter. kayab, ing-ana diay?...limbaroy na...hehe...karon kay ning ingon pod si hesus nga kuno siya tinapay, di, tinapay sab siya? nya sa lain pang verse ning ingon bato pod kuno siya, di, bato sab siya?..matud pa sa morus: igsu..makalibog..

di nala ko motubay pas imong giingon mahitungod sa bunyag...hehehe duda ko duh...igsu..makalibog gihapon..:D

Lahi ra ang literal ug ang figurative doh! Ayaw ko ingna nga pag ingon ni Jesus nga siya tawo, figurative speaking lang to! Kabalo tawon ta unsay figurative ug unsay literal doh oy...maayo ayaw nalang riwa kun sa imo ang figurative ug ang literal parehas ra...

brategamete
02-09-2009, 07:02 PM
What specific teaching of the Catholic Church are you referring to? Show it here so I can answer your question of whether I really believe it.



Reboltos. You truly are not Catholic, are you?

brategamete
02-09-2009, 07:14 PM
What do you think? Naa kaha dili nahibaloan ang Dyos? He is omnipotent!




I am implying the context of the Exodus 20:3-5. Why He made such commandment? Do you understand what He meant? Or you just understand based on your interpretation? Or your "logic", correct thinking? Why use your logic and reason instead of your faith. Faith to the Word of God. Sola Scriptura. The Bible and the Bible alone.

If you are honest and sincere student of the Word of God, you would be honest to admit that RC is tolerating idolatry.Exactly breaking God's commandment. Making Him jealous. That is sin.

brategamete
02-09-2009, 07:31 PM
Boot ba nimo ipasabot nga sa Exodus 20:3-5 totally gibawal sa Diyos ang paghimo ug bisan unsa nga larawan o rebulto? O dili ba kaha ang gibawal mao ang paghimo ug diyos-diyos (idol)?

Nia ang Exodus 20:3-5:
Exodus 20:3-5 (http://www.luc.edu/faculty/pmoser/idolanon/Exodus20.html)
"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...."

Claro diha nga ang gibawal mao ang paghimo ug diyos-diyos or larawan ug rebulto nga ilhon nga dyos. Sakto ba ni nga pagsabot? Sakto ni kay gani ang Dyos nagsugo man pagpahimo ug statwa sa bitin aron ang mga Israelitas nga mapaakan ug bitin maolian kun motan-aw sa statwa sa bitin.



Dili ako ang nagbawal ana. It's the WORD of the LORD. Don't put God's Word to your justification of unbelief. Don't justify my friend. This a matter of listening to God's Word or somebody else's word.

You can carve, you can make anything you like. God is not telling you the the prohibition of art. Worship the Creator not the creation/created/creature or invention or any form of art. Worship God the Creator. It's not just making, as what your intelligent reason keeps on arguing. Concider your text:

Exodus 20:3-5 (http://www.luc.edu/faculty/pmoser/idolanon/Exodus20.html)
"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...."

How many of you professing to have worshipped God by heart without bowing to religious images and reboltos. PROOF: Pwede man ta cguro mag procession nga walay rebolto ni berhin maria ba. Pwede man tingali ta mangadye nga walay crucifix. pwede man tingali nga dili ta mo kiss og rebolto sama sa BLACK NAZARENE. The truth is, idolatry is in the Big Church. Euphemisimed as "Religious Relics?" Hey? That's paganism.

This is idolatry. And God is jealous about it.

brategamete
02-09-2009, 07:47 PM
Claro diha nga ang gibawal mao ang paghimo ug diyos-diyos or larawan ug rebulto nga ilhon nga dyos. Sakto ba ni nga pagsabot? Sakto ni kay gani ang Dyos nagsugo man pagpahimo ug statwa sa bitin aron ang mga Israelitas nga mapaakan ug bitin maolian kun motan-aw sa statwa sa bitin.
Nia sa Numbers 21:8-9 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/num021.htm):
8 "And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."
So, claro nga dili totally gibawal ang statwa o rebulto. Ang Dyos paman gani ang napasi ugda pagpahimo ug estatwa. Ngano gitugot man kadto? Kay wala man kadto nila ilha nga dyos, mao nga kadto nga statwa dili diyos-diyos; dili "idol".

Dinhi lang usa ko kutob. At least now may idiya kana asa padowong kining atong surosugilanon. Hagpaton nato usag-usag kining imong mga nahasulan bahin sa pagtolon-an Catolico.


OK! Salamat kay you are with me. Do you know the background of NUmbers 21:8-9? Have you read the whole story, context? The Israelites were bitten by venomous and deadly snakes in the wilderness. God instructed Moses to make a brazen serpent. Anyone who looked at it was healed. In other words:

1) The making of the brazen serpent is an instruction directly from God Himself. therefore, not an idol

2) The instruction was not for worship. Therefore not idolatry.

3) The looking at the brazen serpent was not worship, since it was an antidote for poison. (It is the symbol of medicine) The School of Medicine nowadays got the idea from this story.

4) The lifting up of the brazen serpent typifies the Cross.

5) The victims were healed not because of the brazen serpent but because of their faith in God.

When God says "Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image," people make and worship them (as in religious ceremonies).

When God says, "Thou shall make a brazen serpent," you did not. Because you are not Moses.

So thanks for listening to God's Word.

agta
02-09-2009, 07:55 PM
OK! Salamat kay you are with me. Do you know the background of NUmbers 21:8-9? Have you read the whole story, context? The Israelites were bitten by venomous and deadly snakes in the wilderness. God instructed Moses to make a brazen serpent. Anyone who looked at it was healed. In other words:

1) The making of the brazen serpent is an instruction directly from God Himself. therefore, not an idol

2) The instruction was not for worship. Therefore not idolatry.

3) The looking at the brazen serpent was not worship, since it was an antidote for poison. (It is the symbol of medicine) The School of Medicine nowadays got the idea from this story.

4) The lifting up of the brazen serpent typifies the Cross.

5) The victims were healed not because of the brazen serpent but because of their faith in God.

When God says "Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image," people make and worship them (as in religious ceremonies).

When God says, "Thou shall make a brazen serpent," you did not. Because you are not Moses.

So thanks for listening to God's Word.
In short, the statue of the snake that Moses made was not an idol because it was not to be looked upon as god.

And these images of the alphabet in this post are not idols because these are not considered as gods.

Our family pictures are not idols because they are not considered as gods.

Thank you too that you got the point.

brategamete
02-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Dinhi lang usa ko kutob. At least now may idiya kana asa padowong kining atong surosugilanon. Hagpaton nato usag-usag kining imong mga nahasulan bahin sa pagtolon-an Catolico.


I am not interested sa pagtolon-ang Catolico. I am interested in God's Word. Dugay na unta ko nahimong sako sa RC kung Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini nga daku nga iglesya. Unsaon ta man mas pilion pa man nila ang pagtuo sa Authority of the Church, which were councils of Cardinals and Bishops down through the ages. The Bible, God's Word, under sa Church authority. Is this not blasphemy?

Its time to look back your history. The Church is in apostasy. Falling away from the Word of God. During the Dark Ages, the Church through the Inquisition murdered people of different classes by obeying God's Word or by reading the Bible. The Bible was banned. Anyone who was found one, burned. The Bible was translated to a dead language Jerome Vulgate so that truth was hidden. Only the priest can read the Bible. There are a lot of these stories, legends. But its written in the annals of your History and called it the DARK AGES.

I am not a Protestant. I am a follower of Jesus. Thank you.

agta
02-09-2009, 08:24 PM
Dili ako ang nagbawal ana. It's the WORD of the LORD. Don't put God's Word to your justification of unbelief. Don't justify my friend. This a matter of listening to God's Word or somebody else's word.
I am not justifying my friend! Don't make conclusions too quickly. It is very clear from the context of Exodus 20:3-5. The basis of the prohibitions is idolatry: Worshipping as god something or someone who is not god. That is the constext. The making of statues or images is prohibited when it is intended to be worshipped as god. And I assure you, Catholic Church does not teach that the statues and images be worshipped as gods. Maybe you just did not know it so you are thinking that the Catholic Church worships the images as gods. That is a false thinking.


How many of you professing to have worshipped God by heart without bowing to religious images and reboltos. PROOF: Pwede man ta cguro mag procession nga walay rebolto ni berhin maria ba. Pwede man tingali ta mangadye nga walay crucifix. pwede man tingali nga dili ta mo kiss og rebolto sama sa BLACK NAZARENE. The truth is, idolatry is in the Big Church. Euphemisimed as "Religious Relics?" Hey? That's paganism.

This is idolatry. And God is jealous about it.
Bowing does not always mean worship to a god. It has various meanings depending on what is in the heart of the individual doing it. We cannot read what is in his heart. So if we want to know what is in his heart when he bows, ask him. But before we have done that, we have no basis to conclude that he is taking the image as god.

Wala man tingali magbawal sa imo kun mag procession ka nga wala dala nga imahen ba. Sigi birahi ug procession kun gusto ka. Pero kadtong grupo nga nakagusto magdala ug imahen pasagdi lang pod to sila kay wala man ka kabalo unsa naa sa ila kasing kasing. Sufficient lang nga hibalo ka nga wala sila magtan-aw nga dyos ang imahen.

agta
02-09-2009, 08:36 PM
I am not interested sa pagtolon-ang Catolico. I am interested in God's Word. Dugay na unta ko nahimong sako sa RC kung Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini nga daku nga iglesya. Unsaon ta man mas pilion pa man nila ang pagtuo sa Authority of the Church, which were councils of Cardinals and Bishops down through the ages. The Bible, God's Word, under sa Church authority. Is this not blasphemy?

Its time to look back your history. The Church is in apostasy. Falling away from the Word of God. During the Dark Ages, the Church through the Inquisition murdered people of different classes by obeying God's Word or by reading the Bible. The Bible was banned. Anyone who was found one, burned. The Bible was translated to a dead language Jerome Vulgate so that truth was hidden. Only the priest can read the Bible. There are a lot of these stories, legends. But its written in the annals of your History and called it the DARK AGES.

I am not a Protestant. I am a follower of Jesus. Thank you.
Lisod man gud nang imong gusto nga "Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini" kay labot lang nga unbiblical kana nga idiya supak pa gyod kana sa bible. Kay ang bible nag ingon man nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran.

agta
02-10-2009, 06:06 AM
Its time to look back your history. The Church is in apostasy. Falling away from the Word of God. During the Dark Ages, the Church through the Inquisition murdered people of different classes by obeying God's Word or by reading the Bible. The Bible was banned. Anyone who was found one, burned. The Bible was translated to a dead language Jerome Vulgate so that truth was hidden. Only the priest can read the Bible. There are a lot of these stories, legends. But its written in the annals of your History and called it the DARK AGES.

I am not a Protestant. I am a follower of Jesus. Thank you.
The Church murdered people? That is a big lie! A lie invented by protestants aron daghan mamiya sa Church. Mao na ang apostasy: ang pagbiya sa simbahan. Ug aron maka pangombinsi sa uban pagbiya sa kamatooran, nag imbinto sila ug bakak nga pasangil.

The Church is pro-life ever since the beginning. Even now she is against abortion! Bisan gani ang contraception, kontra ang Church niana. The Church condemns murder!

Wala jamo kaning motoo lang ta sa bakak nga pasangil.

brategamete
02-10-2009, 07:19 PM
In short, the statue of the snake that Moses made was not an idol because it was not to be looked upon as god.

And these images of the alphabet in this post are not idols because these are not considered as gods.

Our family pictures are not idols because they are not considered as gods.

Thank you too that you got the point.

You really miss the point my friend...
Romans 3:20 (King James Version)


20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


We know sin because of the law. When God said "Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image, nor any likeness..." and then you break it, you know you sin. You do not sin against your reason and intelligence. You sin against God's Law, God's Principles, God's Word, what God has instructed you.


You cannot justify your religious relics and liken it with you family pictures. Why not put your family pictures in your church instead?



The point here is that worship is a religious act. It is a spiritual deed. We worship God in spirit and in truth. Your religious images, crucifixes, & relics are used in your spiritual experience as what you believe in you heart.



Didn't God mean a spiritual worship in your spiritual aspect? Whether you like it or not, whether you deny it or not, you cannot go away from the truth that physical religious relics are part of such spiritual experience.


That is idolatry. Jesus is God the Son right? And He is the head of your church? Did He teach such religious relics necessary in a spiritual worship? If He did, show me the biblical passage. If you find one, I'll be a Catholic eventually.


In fact. Jesus said "Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=14&l=6&f=s#x)


Did He say "Ok, use a crucifix in your spiritual worship!" In fact He said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9


Your idea that religious relics in your spiritual worship is justifiable is unbiblical. Those are just commandments of your church "councils", commandments imposed by your church and not by Jesus.


Regarding the brazen serpent, it was not an idol because the Israelites did not make it a god unto themselves. But it was not an idol first because there was no worship involved. It was an antidote for the snake poison. It was a symbol of Jesus. It was a type of Jesus.


It is not an excuse that you are now allowed to make religious relics and worship them as part of your religious experience because God commanded Moses to make a brazen serpent. What do you think?



Granting that it is alright, then why not put brazen serpents around your churches? Or replace the giant carved crucifix with a big carved brazen serpent?



So in other words, "Obey God."



1) Do not make any image (in religious worship)


2) Make a brazen serpent (as in instead of your Virgin Mary).


Is this your point?


hahahahahahaha. I have found out you are disobedient.honestly. this is just brotherly advice...

brategamete
02-10-2009, 07:32 PM
I am not justifying my friend! Don't make conclusions too quickly. It is very clear from the context of Exodus 20:3-5. The basis of the prohibitions is idolatry: Worshipping as god something or someone who is not god. That is the constext. The making of statues or images is prohibited when it is intended to be worshipped as god. And I assure you, Catholic Church does not teach that the statues and images be worshipped as gods. Maybe you just did not know it so you are thinking that the Catholic Church worships the images as gods. That is a false thinking.


Oh really? We, not Catholics are false of our thinking regarding our observations on your ATTITUDE in dealing such religious experience? And your priests had nothing to do with it? The patrons? The black nazarene? The claimed miracles of a teary virgin mary?

Or may be you're just deceived by your church? kalooy pod? as your brother in Christ, I tell you the truth. And the "truth shall make you free!" John 8:32

I'm sorry for such meticulous words...this is just the only way of telling you that your religious practices and teachings are WRONG! Just follow the Bible my friend. It is not religion who will save you. It is Jesus.

Acts 4:12 (New International Version)

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

brategamete
02-10-2009, 07:38 PM
I am not justifying my friend! Don't make conclusions too quickly. It is very clear from the context of Exodus 20:3-5. The basis of the prohibitions is idolatry: Worshipping as god something or someone who is not god. That is the constext. The making of statues or images is prohibited when it is intended to be worshipped as god. And I assure you, Catholic Church does not teach that the statues and images be worshipped as gods. Maybe you just did not know it so you are thinking that the Catholic Church worships the images as gods. That is a false thinking.


Oh really? We, not Catholics are false of our thinking regarding our observations on your ATTITUDE in dealing such religious experience? And your priests had nothing to do with it? The patrons? The black nazarene? The claimed miracles of a teary virgin mary?

Or may be you're just deceived by your church? kalooy pod? as your brother in Christ, I tell you the truth. And the "truth shall make you free!" John 8:32

I'm sorry for such meticulous words...this is just the only way of telling you that your religious practices and teachings are WRONG! Just follow the Bible my friend. It is not religion who will save you. It is Jesus.

Acts 4:12 (New International Version)

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

brategamete
02-10-2009, 07:40 PM
Bowing does not always mean worship to a god.

You are right! No argument!

brategamete
02-10-2009, 08:04 PM
It has various meanings depending on what is in the heart of the individual doing it. We cannot read what is in his heart. So if we want to know what is in his heart when he bows, ask him. But before we have done that, we have no basis to conclude that he is taking the image as god.



What do you think are the intentions of millions of Catholics around the world, moving while kneeling towards the very feet of these called Holy Statues? Maybe that is in their heart. But remember the word "kardia" in the Bible, that is heart, is the holistic being in terms of faith and worship? It means that actually it's the mind? Not actually the heart. Because


"The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9.


It is the mind actually. The intents of the mind. Not emotions. But cognitive. So what do you think is the reason of your religious experience with these relgious statues, images and relics? Is this not worship? Is this not recognizing a God? Virgin mary a mediator? The saints are given honor, praise, and worship, and prayer?


Ah, by the way, Your Saint Paul, refused not to be adored and bowed.


Acts 14:8-15 (New International Version)



11When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. 14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15"Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them.


Saint Paul is not to be included in your religious experience.


How about the idea of bowing? With reverence? Is not worship? Here read this text:


Revelation 22:8-9 (New International Version)


8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"


You see even St John himself was tempted to worship an angel because of the wonderful things he saw. But He was reprimanded because it is idolatry.



Nia pa:


Revelation 19:10 (New International Version)


10At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


You cannot deny the ATTITUDE OF REVERENCE to your religious relics. It worship. It is a religious experience. It is a spiritual experience. It is the intent of the mind.



It is idolatry. It is blasphemy. Against your God.

brategamete
02-10-2009, 08:33 PM
Wala man tingali magbawal sa imo kun mag procession ka nga wala dala nga imahen ba. Sigi birahi ug procession kun gusto ka. Pero kadtong grupo nga nakagusto magdala ug imahen pasagdi lang pod to sila kay wala man ka kabalo unsa naa sa ila kasing kasing. Sufficient lang nga hibalo ka nga wala sila magtan-aw nga dyos ang imahen.

The principle of God's first and second commandment is WORSHIP. The LAW protects this principles. When you break this law it is called IDOLATRY.

Worship is OF GOD, FOR GOD, NOT BY GOD.
Worship is not OF MAN, not FOR MAN, but BY MAN.

Worship involves two parties: A God and a creature.
But it is not relative.

Idolatry involves two parties: A god and a man (rational creature)
But idolatry is not relative. (Since a god is non-existent)

Idolatry is not relative. If it is idolatry to GOD then it is!
Idolatry is not relative. If it is NOT idolatry to man, it is idolatry to God!

Who will judge if it is idolatry or not? It God's Law. It is God's Word.

Sa pagprocession nga ginaparctice sa RC, why there is reverence sa berhin? YEs! Because this is a religious experience. It is an experience of worship. Regardless of what other people see it.

God did not say, "Thou shall not make any graven image nor any likeness...but its alright as long as you did not see it as an idol..as long as your heart is on me...its ok"

Maybe that is your point...If that is...You are adding your own words to the Word of God.

Isaiah 55:8-9 (New International Version)


8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

brategamete
02-10-2009, 08:39 PM
Lisod man gud nang imong gusto nga "Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini" kay labot lang nga unbiblical kana nga idiya supak pa gyod kana sa bible. Kay ang bible nag ingon man nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran.

Excellent!
Please cite a biblical text for this point and lets criticize the same passage together.

brategamete
02-10-2009, 09:00 PM
The Church murdered people? That is a big lie! A lie invented by protestants aron daghan mamiya sa Church. Mao na ang apostasy: ang pagbiya sa simbahan. Ug aron maka pangombinsi sa uban pagbiya sa kamatooran, nag imbinto sila ug bakak nga pasangil.

The Church is pro-life ever since the beginning. Even now she is against abortion! Bisan gani ang contraception, kontra ang Church niana. The Church condemns murder!

Wala jamo kaning motoo lang ta sa bakak nga pasangil.


OK for your personal information, Sir! See for your self. I think there are more than a million of them if you google them.

http://chriswillard.multiply.com/video/item/361/Catholic_Inquisition_and_The_Torture_Tools

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

http://www.experiencefestival.com/history_of_the_roman_catholic_church_-_church_of_the_dark_ages_476_ad__850_ad

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/ch/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.HTML

Please don't forget the APOLOGY of the late His Holiness Pope John Paul II (isn't that blasphemy, taking the name of the Holy One, Jesus Christ, who is born in Bethlehem?):

http://www.religioustolerance.org/popeapo2.htm

And then tell me then what happened in your church throughout the ages.

John prophesied about this falling away:

Revelation 18:4-5 (New International Version)


4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.


The idea of coming out of Babylon is similar to Paul's comment in 2 Cor 6:16-18, which refer to separation and purity:

(2 Cor 6:16-18 NIV) What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." {17} "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." {18} "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

brategamete
02-10-2009, 09:10 PM
In short, the statue of the snake that Moses made was not an idol because it was not to be looked upon as god.




It was not an idol because it was not intentioned in their religious experience. It was made to heal them. It was made as an antidote.

Let's compare it to the making of your Virgin Mary statue. What's the purpose of it? Some claimed miracles from them! Did God tell the Roman Catholic Church to make such holy relics?

Tubag......

agta
02-11-2009, 02:34 AM
It was not an idol because it was not intentioned in their religious experience. It was made to heal them. It was made as an antidote.

Let's compare it to the making of your Virgin Mary statue. What's the purpose of it? Some claimed miracles from them! Did God tell the Roman Catholic Church to make such holy relics?

Tubag......

He he he!

Ang maayo bilinon dili na kinahanglan tugunon. Ang Dyos atong Amahan. Unsay buhaton sa Amahan pwede pod buhaton sa mga anak, kay ang Amahan ehemplo man sa mga anak.

Bitaw, unsa ang purpose sa Virgin Mary statue? Maayo kay nangutana ka ana. Kada usa iya iya ug purpose. Pareho sa imo, unsa purpose nimo ngano naa ka picture sa imo Mama? Ikaw lang katubag ana. Dili ko pwede ma guess kay dili man ko kabasa sa naa sa imo kasingkasing. Busa ayaw pod pag guess nga ang amo purpose paghimo kang Mama Mary nga Diyos. Dili ba fair lang nga ingon ana ato buhaton dili ta mag tagna tagna?

agta
02-11-2009, 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by agta View Post
Lisod man gud nang imong gusto nga "Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini" kay labot lang nga unbiblical kana nga idiya supak pa gyod kana sa bible. Kay ang bible nag ingon man nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran.
Excellent!
Please cite a biblical text for this point and lets criticize the same passage together.
Toink! Kanang idiya nga "Bibliya lang unta ang sole authority niini" unbiblical na! Mao bitaw nga unbilical kay wala na sa bibliya. Naunsa naba hinoon nga ako namay pangitaan ug citation. Ikaw ang nagtoo ana, pwes ikaw pangita ug citation. Wala na sa bibliya. Busa ayaw ana pangandoy.

Apan ang kamatooran nga bibliya nagaingon nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran naa mabasa sa 1Tim 3:15,
15
"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Dili ba clarix, Friend?

agta
02-11-2009, 03:39 AM
OK for your personal information, Sir! See for your self. I think there are more than a million of them if you google them.

http://chriswillard.multiply.com/video/item/361/Catholic_Inquisition_and_The_Torture_Tools

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

http://www.experiencefestival.com/history_of_the_roman_catholic_church_-_church_of_the_dark_ages_476_ad__850_ad

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/ch/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.HTML

Please don't forget the APOLOGY of the late His Holiness Pope John Paul II (isn't that blasphemy, taking the name of the Holy One, Jesus Christ, who is born in Bethlehem?):

Kana nga imo gi pang cite nga references about inquisition ang mga author ana mga protestante kun ilang gipasangil nga ang inquisition sa simbahan pagpapatay ug tawo o katawhan.

Ang kamatooran mao kini. Ang civil government niadtong panahona nagpagawas ug balaud nga magsentensya kamatayon sa tanan mahipamatud-an nila nga ningsupak sa pagtolon-an sa simbahan. Nabalaka kaayo ang simbahan niani, apan wala ang simbahan kaniadto, ug bisan gani karon, gahum pagkontra o pagbali sa mando sa "hari". Gusto sa simbahan masalbar ang mga tawo sa maong balaod.

Tungod niana, ang simbahan naghimo pod ug kaugalingon nga corte, gitawag nga "Inquisition". Dinhi ani nga inquisition, ang sentensya sa simbahan dili bitay o kamatayon, kun dili excommunication lang. Nia ang excerpt sa manual (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/bernardgui-inq.html)sa usa nga Inquisitor niadtong panahona:

"9. The form of the first sentence can be as follows.
Since you, So-and-So of Such-and-Such-a-Place, were arrested or cited as suspect, reported denounced accused of holding the errors and erroneous opinions of the Beguins, who call themselves poor brothers of the third order of Saint Francis - errors which they hold and teach contrary to right faith, the state of the holy Roman and universal church, and apostolic authority - and you have been brought before us, So-and-So the inquisitor, then required and admonished by us several times according to legal form to swear that you will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth both concerning yourself and concerning your accomplices, believers and benefactors, alive and dead, as it relates to the matter of heresy and especially the errors and erroneous opinions of certain beguins who extoll themselves in opposition to the faith, the Roman church, the apostolic seat and the power of the pope and other leaders of the Roman church, and you refuse to swear simply and absolutely, but will only do so with certain conditions, reservations and under protest - conditions, reservations and protests which are entirely foreign to law and reason - I the aforesaid inquisitor So-and-So order and admonish you once, twice and thrice, according to legal form, under pain of excommunication, to swear before us on the gospel of God in judicial process, simply and absolutely, without condition or reservation contrary to law and reason, to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth concerning yourself and your accomplices, believers, benefactors and defenders, living or dead. Acting as a witness, tell whatever you know, knew, saw, believe or believed concerning heresy, and especially concerning the errors and erroneous or schismatic opinions held by you and other beguins of the third order of Saint Francis, and concerning anything else pertaining to the matter of heretical depravity. And out of mercy and grace I give you as a first term from this hour until the sixth hour of this same day, and as a second term from the sixth hour until the ninth, and as a third and final term from the ninth hour until vespers, or until completorium of this day. And unless by that final time you swear in the manner indicated, the legally required admonitions having been delivered, by the apostolic authority I bear through the office of inquisition by this same written document I excommunicate you and pass sentence of excommunication upon you, and I offer a copy of it to you should you wish to have it and request it. This sentence was given in such-a-year, on such-a-day, and in such- a-place, with the following people present, etc.

10. The form of the other sentence of excommunication against one who is contumacious could be as follows:
We, the inquisitor So-and-So, by the apostolic authority we bear by virtue of the office of inquisition concerning heretical depravity, order and admonish once, twice and thrice according to legal form, that you, so-and-so from such-and-such-a-place, swear simply and precisely to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth about yourself and your accomplices regarding the errors and erroneous opinions of the beguins of the third order, and regarding certain other things touching the faith and relevant to the office of the inquisitor of heretical depravity; again, that you humbly request the benefit of absolution from the sentence of excommunication laid on you by us in writing, which you have incurred which binds you still; and that you return unity with the church, acknowledge your error and abjure all heresy in our presence, so that, having sworn to observe the mandates of the church and our demands, you may deserve to be reconciled with the unity of the church. And we cite you to appear and do all this on the third day from this present one, assigning you the first day as a first term, the second as a second, and the third as the third and last. After that point you will respond concerning the faith and those things of which you are suspected, denounced, accused, telling the whole truth in judicial process about whatever you have done or know others to have done against the faith. Otherwise, if you have failed by completorium of that day to do each and every one of the aforementioned things, all of which you are legally required to do, by the apostolic authority held by us through the office of inquisition, we lay on you the bond of excommunication as one contumacious in matters of faith, because you are evasive and contemptuously refuse to be obedient in these things, and we declare to you that, if you pertinaciously endure this excommunication for a year, we will proceed against you as a heretic. And we offer to you a copy of the excommunication now be placed upon you, should you wish to have it and request it from us. This sentence was given in such-a-year, on such-a- day, and in such-a-place, with the following people present, etc."

Ug tungod niadto nga inquisition sa simbahan daghan katawhan ang nakalinggawas sa cruelty sa civil government niadtong panahona.

Mao na ang kamatooran. Gihiwi pag sabot sa mga protestante aron lang makabutang butang ug sala sa simbahan.

Kadtong APOLOGY sa Pope usa pod kadto nga gihiwi pagsabot sa mga protestante. Kadto nga apology wala kadto mag ingon nga ang simbahan mao ang nagpabuhat adto nga mga kasaypanan. Nangayo ug apology ang Santo Papa tungod sa mga kasal-anan nga nabuhat sa ubang mga miembro sa simbahan. Bali gi ako sa Santo Papa ang mga kasal-anan nga nabuhat sa ubang miembro sa simbahan. Dili boot ipasabot nga ang simbahan mismo ang nakasala.

Mao na ang tim-os ug hubo nga kamatuoran, my Friend.

brategamete
02-11-2009, 02:13 PM
He he he!

Ang maayo bilinon dili na kinahanglan tugunon. Ang Dyos atong Amahan. Unsay buhaton sa Amahan pwede pod buhaton sa mga anak, kay ang Amahan ehemplo man sa mga anak.

Bitaw, unsa ang purpose sa Virgin Mary statue? Maayo kay nangutana ka ana. Kada usa iya iya ug purpose. Pareho sa imo, unsa purpose nimo ngano naa ka picture sa imo Mama? Ikaw lang katubag ana. Dili ko pwede ma guess kay dili man ko kabasa sa naa sa imo kasingkasing. Busa ayaw pod pag guess nga ang amo purpose paghimo kang Mama Mary nga Diyos. Dili ba fair lang nga ingon ana ato buhaton dili ta mag tagna tagna?

So klaro kaau nga dili gikan sa Ginoo ang inyo pagsimba. Kay nagdepende lang man sa INYO gihunahuna.

Ang Dios nagsugo nga dili magbaton og lain Dios. Ang Dios nagsugo nga dili mag himo og bisan unsa nga larawan.

Wala ninyo sunda. Kay lagi kono kamo ray nahibalo sa inyo katuyuan.

Oi intawon mga alagad sa Dios, ang katuyuan magsugod sa Dios kay siya ang naghimo sa sugo sa pagsimba lamang Kaniya.

Karon moiingon nga depende sa katuyuan sa magsisimba?

brategamete
02-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Let's compare it to the making of your Virgin Mary statue. What's the purpose of it? Some claimed miracles from them! Did God tell the Roman Catholic Church to make such holy relics?

Tubag......

Please answer this question with citation from your church or any believed source of authority...

brategamete
02-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by agta View Post
Lisod man gud nang imong gusto nga "Biblia lang unta ang sole authority niini" kay labot lang nga unbiblical kana nga idiya supak pa gyod kana sa bible. Kay ang bible nag ingon man nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran.
Toink! Kanang idiya nga "Bibliya lang unta ang sole authority niini" unbiblical na! Mao bitaw nga unbilical kay wala na sa bibliya. Naunsa naba hinoon nga ako namay pangitaan ug citation. Ikaw ang nagtoo ana, pwes ikaw pangita ug citation. Wala na sa bibliya. Busa ayaw ana pangandoy.

Apan ang kamatooran nga bibliya nagaingon nga ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatooran naa mabasa sa 1Tim 3:15,
15
"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Dili ba clarix, Friend?

Is that the way you understand this letter to Timothy?

Ok let me do a short exposition of this text. (Im not a scholar im just an honest student of the Bible)


Timothy joined Paul on mission (Acts 16:1-3) and Timothy becomes Paul's "helper" in ministry. Paul was regularly sending Timothy on mission trips he himself cannot make, "to strengthen the congregations." For example, Timothy is left at Ephesus to minister while Paul travels on to Macedonia, a place he makes two such visits to, presumably both times from Ephesus . The same author informs us that there are several objective messages of this Epistle to Timothy. It is to:


1. Keep the church at Ephesus on track in Paul's absence;
2. Address "would be" teachers (including those teaching incorrect application of the law);
3. Be attentive of his guidelines for the selection of church leaders; and,
4. Know how the church community should care for, and support, widows.

When Paul said "house" of God it could mean the local "building" in Ephesus. But when Paul said "church" of God, I agree that he meant the catholic church (but not RC because RC has popes, vicars to the Son of God on earth, while Christ's church only gifts to apostles, teacher, deacons etc)

When Paul said, "Pillar and ground of truth" what he meant? Did he mean the RC? Maybe the orthodox church?

Read again the passage:

1 Timothy 3:15 (New International Version)

15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.


What Paul meant here is the church that is grounded and pillared in the truth.


The first century Christian church, famously called as the Apostolic Church was prophesied by John in Revelation 2, as The Church of Ephesus. This church held the doctrines through freshly from apostleship, meaning the teachings were pure since it comes from Jesus Christ Himself.


Ephesians 2:20 (New International Version)

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.


We are warned in 1 Timothy 4:1-2:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron."



And in 2 Timothy 4:1-4:

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that as God he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Etc." (2 Thes. 2:1-12 - KJV).





The truth is Roman Catholic is not the pillar and ground of truth. They have developed dogmas that were not in the original church like immaculate conception, purgatory, reboltos, substantiation (eucharist), etc.


It has been predicted. The falling away from the original Apostolic catholic church. The church that Christ Himself as the chief cornerstone or foundation. RC has apostatize from the TRUTH.


So, God's WORD, through the apostles and the prophets, is the ONLY authority of our teachings?



I rather believe the Gospels written by Jesus' disciples than the Councils of Bishops because they were chosen as to bring the gospel into the world. I rather believe Paul writing his epistles because he had that Damascus experience with the Savior than the letters of the Pope to the churches.


I rather believe the Bible than the teaching of Roman Catholic Church which is based on TRADITION. It contradicts to Christianity.

brategamete
02-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Kana nga imo gi pang cite nga references about inquisition ang mga author ana mga protestante kun ilang gipasangil nga ang inquisition sa simbahan pagpapatay ug tawo o katawhan.


Mao na ang tim-os ug hubo nga kamatuoran, my Friend.

Cge kay mibai-id naman jud na nga ang history sa imong Church thoughout the ages nga maayo sa imong hunahuna.

Testingi ni og scrutinized. Possible dili ni Catholic source but tan-awa ang citations kay naa enclopedia. It's recorded in history.

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Inquisition.html

Pagkangil-ad higala! Unahan nalang teka...Godbless

brategamete
02-11-2009, 04:12 PM
Ang kamatooran mao kini. Ang civil government niadtong panahona nagpagawas ug balaud nga magsentensya kamatayon sa tanan mahipamatud-an nila nga ningsupak sa pagtolon-an sa simbahan. Nabalaka kaayo ang simbahan niani, apan wala ang simbahan kaniadto, ug bisan gani karon, gahum pagkontra o pagbali sa mando sa "hari". Gusto sa simbahan masalbar ang mga tawo sa maong balaod.



Mao ra ba na ang imong nabal-an?

How about the Dark Ages (537-1798)? 1,260 years that the Pope is above the state. Your church has been controlling the government even now.

PROOF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm

The Church had temporarily controlling the government in 1798 when Pope Pius VI was captured by a french general, Berthier, under the command of Napoleon. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alexandre_Berthier]

Papacy came back in power in 1929. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_during_the_Savoyard_Era_1870%E2%80%931929]

It has been prophesied. Your church is the Babylon. The Mark of the Beast. We can argue this in the next thread. Godbless

agta
02-11-2009, 10:00 PM
Cge kay mibai-id naman jud na nga ang history sa imong Church thoughout the ages nga maayo sa imong hunahuna.

Testingi ni og scrutinized. Possible dili ni Catholic source but tan-awa ang citations kay naa enclopedia. It's recorded in history.

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Inquisition.html

Pagkangil-ad higala! Unahan nalang teka...Godbless

Kanang imong gihatag nga reference, tinuod gyod ngil-ad kaayo ang contents, expecially ang pag pamatay. Apan mas labing ngil-ad ang ipasangil kini nga mga buhat ngadto sa simbahan. Kay didto sa maong reference wala ebedinsya nga ang simbahan nag order pagpapatay. Gani sa usa ko ka post dinhi nga thread gipakita ko sa imo ang excerpt sa manual sa inquisitor. Claro didto nga ang official nga sentensiya sa simbahan bahin sa mga heretico mao lamang ang EXCOMMUNICATION, dili kamatayon.

Kuwangan ka pa sa ako gihatag sa imo nga reference?

Nia basaha kini higala, completo sa mga links ug ebedinsya. Kun dili ka pa ana matagbaw, e click lang any part sa quoted text:

The suppression of heresy by the institution known as the inquisition
The inquisition of the Middle Ages
Origin

During the first three decades of the thirteenth century the Inquisition, as the institution, did not exist. But eventually Christian Europe was so endangered by heresy, and penal legislation concerning Catharism had gone so far, that the Inquisition seemed to be a political necessity. That these sects were a menace to Christian society had been long recognized by the Byzantine rulers. As early as the tenth century Empress Theodora had put to death a multitude of Paulicians, and in 1118 Emperor Alexius Comnenus treated the Bogomili with equal severity, but this did not prevent them from pouring over all Western Europe. Moreover these sects were in the highest degree aggressive, hostile to Christianity itself, to the Mass, the sacraments, the ecclesiastical hierarchy and organization; hostile also to feudal government by their attitude towards oaths, which they declared under no circumstances allowable. Nor were their views less fatal to the continuance of human society, for on the one hand they forbade marriage and the propagation of the human race, and on the other hand they made a duty of suicide through the institution of the Endura (see CATHARI). It has been said that more perished through the Endura (the Catharist suicide code) than through the Inquisition. It was, therefore, natural enough for the custodians of the existing order in Europe, especially of the Christian religion, to adopt repressive measures against such revolutionary teachings.

In France Louis VIII decreed in 1226 that persons excommunicated by the diocesan bishop, or his delegate, should receive "meet punishment" (debita animadversio). In 1249 Louis IX ordered barons to deal with heretics according to the dictates of duty (de ipsis faciant quod debebant). A decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229) makes it appear probable that in France death at the stake was already comprehended as in keeping with the aforesaid debita animadversio. To seek to trace in these measures the influence of imperial or papal ordinances is vain, since the burning of heretics had already come to be regarded as prescriptive. It is said in the "Etablissements de St. Louis et coutumes de Beauvaisis", ch. cxiii (Ordonnances des Roys de France, I, 211): "Quand le juge [ecclésiastique] laurait examiné [le suspect] se il trouvait, quil feust bougres, si le devrait faire envoier * la justice laie, et la justice laie le dolt fere ardoir."

The "Coutumes de Beauvaisis" correspond to the German "Sachsenspiegel", or "Mirror of Saxon Laws", compiled about 1235, which also embodies as a law sanctioned by custom the execution of unbelievers at the stake (sal man uf der hurt burnen). In Italy Emperor Frederick II, as early as 22 November, 1220 (Mon. Germ., II, 243), issued a rescript against heretics, conceived, however quite in the spirit of Innocent III, and Honorius III commissioned his legates to see to the enforcement in Italian cities of both the canonical decrees of 1215 and the imperial legislation of 1220.

From the foregoing it cannot be doubted that up to 1224 there was no imperial law ordering, or presupposing as legal, the burning of heretics. The rescript for Lombardy of 1224 (Mon. Germ., II, 252; cf. ibid., 288) is accordingly the first law in which death by fire is contemplated (cf. Ficker, op. cit., 196). That Honorius III was in any way concerned in the drafting of this ordinance cannot be maintained; indeed the emperor was all the less in need of papal inspiration as the burning of heretics in Germany was then no longer rare; his legists, moreover, would certainly have directed the emperors attention to the ancient Roman Law that punished high treason with death, and Manichaeism in particular with the stake. The imperial rescripts of 1220 and 1224 were adopted into ecclesiastical criminal law in 1231, and were soon applied at Rome. It was then that the Inquisition of the Middle Ages came into being.

What was the immediate provocation? Contemporary sources afford no positive answer. Bishop Douais, who perhaps commands the original contemporary material better than anyone, has attempted in his latest work(L'Inquisition. Ses Origines. Sa Procedure, Paris, 1906) to explain its appearance by a supposed anxiety of Gregory IX to forestall the encroachments of Frederick II in the strictly ecclesiastical province of doctrine. For this purpose it would seem necessary for the pope to establish a distinct and specifically ecclesiastical court. From this point of view, though the hypothesis cannot be fully proved, much is intelligible that otherwise remains obscure. There was doubtless reason to fear such imperial encroachments in an age yet filled with the angry contentions of the Imperium and the Sacerdotium. We need only recall the trickery of the emperor and his pretended eagerness for the purity of the Faith, his increasingly rigorous legislation against heretics, the numerous executions of his personal rivals on the pretext of heresy, the hereditary passion of the Hohenstaufen for supreme control over Church and State, their claim of God-given authority over both, of responsibility in both domains to God and God only etc. What was more natural than that the Church should strictly reserve to herself her own sphere, while at the same time endeavouring to avoid giving offence to the emperor? A purely spiritual or papal religious tribunal would secure ecclesiastical liberty and authority for this court could be confided to men of expert knowledge and blameless reputation, and above all to independent men in whose hands the Church could safely trust the decision as to the orthodoxy or heterodoxy of a given teaching. On the other hand, to meet the emperor's wishes as far as allowable, the penal code of the empire could be taken over as it stood (cf. Audray, "Regist. de Grégoire IX", n. 535). (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm)

agta
02-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Mao ra ba na ang imong nabal-an?

How about the Dark Ages (537-1798)? 1,260 years that the Pope is above the state. Your church has been controlling the government even now.

PROOF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm

The Church had temporarily controlling the government in 1798 when Pope Pius VI was captured by a french general, Berthier, under the command of Napoleon. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alexandre_Berthier]

Papacy came back in power in 1929. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_during_the_Savoyard_Era_1870%E2%80%931929]

It has been prophesied. Your church is the Babylon. The Mark of the Beast. We can argue this in the next thread. Godbless

Aron dili ta maglangan langan sa mga estorya nga wala unod no, request ko sa imo: pagpakita dinhi ug ebedinsiya nga ang simbahan mismo nag order pagpapatay ug mga tawo. Kana lang, maipakita gani nimo, human ato estoryahay about ani nga Inquisition.

Kun di ka kapakita ana nga ebedinsya, maayo pa hilom nalang kay wala na jamo.

God Bless too!

agta
02-11-2009, 10:28 PM
Is that the way you understand this letter to Timothy?

Ok let me do a short exposition of this text. (Im not a scholar im just an honest student of the Bible).

Timothy joined Paul on mission (Acts 16:1-3) and Timothy becomes Paul's "helper" in ministry. Paul was regularly sending Timothy on mission trips he himself cannot make, "to strengthen the congregations." For example, Timothy is left at Ephesus to minister while Paul travels on to Macedonia, a place he makes two such visits to, presumably both times from Ephesus . The same author informs us that there are several objective messages of this Epistle to Timothy. It is to:


1. Keep the church at Ephesus on track in Paul's absence;
2. Address "would be" teachers (including those teaching incorrect application of the law);
3. Be attentive of his guidelines for the selection of church leaders; and,
4. Know how the church community should care for, and support, widows.

When Paul said "house" of God it could mean the local "building" in Ephesus. But when Paul said "church" of God, I agree that he meant the catholic church (but not RC because RC has popes, vicars to the Son of God on earth, while Christ's church only gifts to apostles, teacher, deacons etc)

When Paul said, "Pillar and ground of truth" what he meant? Did he mean the RC? Maybe the orthodox church?

Read again the passage:

1 Timothy 3:15 (New International Version)

15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.


What Paul meant here is the church that is grounded and pillared in the truth.


Oy! Nadaut naman hinoon ni tungod sa imong exposition. Tan-awa ra: ang sa bible naka suwat nga "pillar" gihimo naman hinoon nimo nga "pillared". Kaingon ko estudyante ka sa bible, doctor man lagi ka ug bible. Imo gi operahan ang pulong nga "pillar". Gwatsi ka gyod, Friend ha! Makalipat ka oroy ana sa mga maluya na ug mata.

agta
02-11-2009, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by brategamete View Post
"Let's compare it to the making of your Virgin Mary statue. What's the purpose of it? Some claimed miracles from them! Did God tell the Roman Catholic Church to make such holy relics?"

Tubag......


Please answer this question with citation from your church or any believed source of authority...

Human na na gitubag didto pa sa post#68. Basaha nalang. Kun dili ka kontento sa tubag didto, pangutana lang unsa wala nimo ma contentohi niadto. Repeat: Post#68.

agta
02-11-2009, 10:54 PM
So klaro kaau nga dili gikan sa Ginoo ang inyo pagsimba. Kay nagdepende lang man sa INYO gihunahuna.

Ang Dios nagsugo nga dili magbaton og lain Dios. Ang Dios nagsugo nga dili mag himo og bisan unsa nga larawan.

Wala ninyo sunda. Kay lagi kono kamo ray nahibalo sa inyo katuyuan.

Oi intawon mga alagad sa Dios, ang katuyuan magsugod sa Dios kay siya ang naghimo sa sugo sa pagsimba lamang Kaniya.

Karon moiingon nga depende sa katuyuan sa magsisimba?

Mao lagi na ang usa ka dakong sayop sa uban kay hilig kaayo mamasangil. Asa man ka ka basa nga ang Catholic Church nagtodlo nga ang mga imahen o larawan sa among mga balay o simbahan giila namo nga diyos? Wala!

Wala pod ko mag ingon "depende sa katuyuan sa magsisimba". Namasangil na pod ka aron ingnon nimo nga giila namo nga dyos ang mga estatwa ug imahen.

Ayaw lagi anang pamasangil kay wala na jamo.

brategamete
02-13-2009, 01:49 PM
Aron dili ta maglangan langan sa mga estorya nga wala unod no, request ko sa imo: pagpakita dinhi ug ebedinsiya nga ang simbahan mismo nag order pagpapatay ug mga tawo. Kana lang, maipakita gani nimo, human ato estoryahay about ani nga Inquisition.

Kun di ka kapakita ana nga ebedinsya, maayo pa hilom nalang kay wala na jamo.

God Bless too!

I have given you already the evidence of what happened in the past and you don't believe the references it cited. Wala na koy mahimo ana. Your church is being accused my friend in past. The evidence in history is clear. The worst thing is it could not be tried.

The divine manual of such inquisition is not sanctioned by Jesus Christ. Made only by the power of your church.

Forget it my friend. It might hurt you badly.

brategamete
02-13-2009, 01:58 PM
Oy! Nadaut naman hinoon ni tungod sa imong exposition. Tan-awa ra: ang sa bible naka suwat nga "pillar" gihimo naman hinoon nimo nga "pillared". Kaingon ko estudyante ka sa bible, doctor man lagi ka ug bible. Imo gi operahan ang pulong nga "pillar". Gwatsi ka gyod, Friend ha! Makalipat ka oroy ana sa mga maluya na ug mata.

Ok dawaton ko na bisan unsa imo isulti. No problem.

So that you would know here is the original Greek version of your text.

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 3:15 (1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament)

15εαν δε βραδυνω ινα ειδης πως δει εν οικω θεου αναστρεφεσθαι ητις εστιν εκκλησια θεου ζωντος στυλος και εδραιωμα της αληθειας.


I was telling you that Paul's original intent of this text is the TRUTH. The Church. The church that teaches the truth. Not a MAKE-BELIEVE just like your REBOLTOS.

agta
02-13-2009, 08:20 PM
Ok dawaton ko na bisan unsa imo isulti. No problem.

So that you would know here is the original Greek version of your text.

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 3:15 (1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament)

15εαν δε βραδυνω ινα ειδης πως δει εν οικω θεου αναστρεφεσθαι ητις εστιν εκκλησια θεου ζωντος στυλος και εδραιωμα της αληθειας.


I was telling you that Paul's original intent of this text is the TRUTH. The Church. The church that teaches the truth. Not a MAKE-BELIEVE just like your REBOLTOS.
Bisan sa original nga Greyego, claro kaayo. No mistake ang pulong ni San Pablo: Ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatuoran.

Ang mga imahen kabahin sa kalibutan nga atong gipuy-an. Ang rebolto usab imong mahikap ug makita. Tinood gyod kana nga kahoy o semento. Dili kana ginaila nga dyos, ug dili gyod kana sila ilhon nga dyos.

agta
02-13-2009, 08:48 PM
I have given you already the evidence of what happened in the past and you don't believe the references it cited. Wala na koy mahimo ana. Your church is being accused my friend in past. The evidence in history is clear. The worst thing is it could not be tried.

The divine manual of such inquisition is not sanctioned by Jesus Christ. Made only by the power of your church.

Forget it my friend. It might hurt you badly.
Wala ka nakita sa history kundili polos pasangil. Ang imong mga references polos lang nagpasangil. Gipakita ko kanimo ang mga references nga nagpakita sa kamatooran mahitungod sa inquisition. Perso imo lang gihapon gimahal ang mga pasangil nga wala kamatooran.

Ang excommunication usa kana nga practice nga gitudlo diha sa bibliya. Ug naipakita ko na sa imo nga ang Manual sa usa nga Inquisitor nagpamatood nga ang sentensya sa simbahan batok sa mga heretico mao ang excommunication, dili ang kamatayon o pagbitay sa heretico.

Tama ang imong ingon: forget it. Tiaw ba nang doctoran ang bibliya aron lang mo haum ang kaugalingon pagsabot bahin sa usa ka passage niani! Yes, forget it.

It might hurt me badly? Is that a threat to my physical life? If that is a threat to my physcial life, then you better think seven times before doing any untoward act. For that would certainly be an act of Satan.

Peace & God Bless!

brategamete
02-17-2009, 02:10 PM
Bisan sa original nga Greyego, claro kaayo. No mistake ang pulong ni San Pablo: Ang simbahan mao ang haligi sa kamatuoran.

Ang mga imahen kabahin sa kalibutan nga atong gipuy-an. Ang rebolto usab imong mahikap ug makita. Tinood gyod kana nga kahoy o semento. Dili kana ginaila nga dyos, ug dili gyod kana sila ilhon nga dyos.


Exactly! The literal word is God's church. God's house. Not the Roman Catholic church. I think the church that uphold the truth, the Bible. Not the tradition.

brategamete
02-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Wala ka nakita sa history kundili polos pasangil. Ang imong mga references polos lang nagpasangil. Gipakita ko kanimo ang mga references nga nagpakita sa kamatooran mahitungod sa inquisition. Perso imo lang gihapon gimahal ang mga pasangil nga wala kamatooran.

Ang excommunication usa kana nga practice nga gitudlo diha sa bibliya. Ug naipakita ko na sa imo nga ang Manual sa usa nga Inquisitor nagpamatood nga ang sentensya sa simbahan batok sa mga heretico mao ang excommunication, dili ang kamatayon o pagbitay sa heretico.

Tama ang imong ingon: forget it. Tiaw ba nang doctoran ang bibliya aron lang mo haum ang kaugalingon pagsabot bahin sa usa ka passage niani! Yes, forget it.

It might hurt me badly? Is that a threat to my physical life? If that is a threat to my physcial life, then you better think seven times before doing any untoward act. For that would certainly be an act of Satan.

Peace & God Bless!


Hahahahahahaha.

It is because you dont love the truth.

You dont believe the Bible as the supreme authority.

Even if history is telling you, you wont believe.

Dili gani ka mutoo sa Biblia nga the only authority, sa history pa kaha.

Well, the Bible predicts the apostate church. Your church fits in history.

If you care read it for yourself:

Dniel 7:25; Rev 13:2-5;Rev 13:18

brategamete
02-17-2009, 02:26 PM
Ang mga imahen kabahin sa kalibutan nga atong gipuy-an. Ang rebolto usab imong mahikap ug makita. Tinood gyod kana nga kahoy o semento. Dili kana ginaila nga dyos, ug dili gyod kana sila ilhon nga dyos.

Ang ako lang....dili gayud kamo obedient sa pulong sa Ginoo.

Pag-ingon sa Ginoo nga dili ka maglilok og larawan sa BISAN unsa nga dagway sa langit og sa yuta, ang boot pasabot ana maghimo og mga santos unya dili lang isipon nga dios dios?

I thought you're a man/woman of intelligence. It has been professed that you're a product of UP?

hahahahahaha. makatawa man pod ta nimo friend...

Just follow God's word my friend. God did not command you to make such images in your religious experience. Did He?

brategamete
02-17-2009, 02:38 PM
Tama ang imong ingon: forget it. Tiaw ba nang doctoran ang bibliya aron lang mo haum ang kaugalingon pagsabot bahin sa usa ka passage niani! Yes, forget it.



All my arguments here are from the Bible. Haven't you notice. Most of your arguments are based on your intelligent reasons. Why dont you scrutinize your belief using the Bible. Have you done that already?

Regarding sa pagdoctor sa 1 Tim 3:15, I didnt. Ang imong pagsabot ang dili mao. Kay gusto nimo nga ang church mao ang Roman Catholic Church. The RC has not been there yet when this epistle to Timothy was written.

Ok here's a scholarly study of the grammatical and syntactical display of this text. If you dont understand such languages, just tell me il elaborate it to you...Hope you understand:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2004-January/027711.html

brategamete
02-17-2009, 02:55 PM
It might hurt me badly? Is that a threat to my physical life? If that is a threat to my physcial life, then you better think seven times before doing any untoward act. For that would certainly be an act of Satan.

Peace & God Bless!


I didnt intend to hurt you. Your mind believes my arguments are threat to you. I only mean sorry if I hurt you. Anywaz, truth hurts!

It seems your words are telling me that I'm Satan.Hope Im wrong. Because Satan does not like the Bible. He quotes the Bible to deceive. He mixes truth and error. And he doesnt like God's word.

If that is not God's word then that is Satan's words.

Analyze this:

God said, "Thou shall not make any graven images...nor any likeness..."

Who said this: "Ok lang na ang mga rebolto basta dili himoong diosdios..."

Readers, try to think it over and over again.

agta
02-21-2009, 04:49 PM
Exactly! The literal word is God's church. God's house. Not the Roman Catholic church. I think the church that uphold the truth, the Bible. Not the tradition.
And who do you think should have a finally say of how a passage in the bible should be understood in case two or more persons understand it differently? Naturally, the Church which Jesus founded. Iyan nga ang isa sa mga dahilan bakit ang mga protestante ay domarami dahil bawat isa sa kanila insists that their individual understanding is the one which is correct.

brategamete
02-26-2009, 11:45 AM
And who do you think should have a finally say of how a passage in the bible should be understood in case two or more persons understand it differently? Naturally, the Church which Jesus founded. Iyan nga ang isa sa mga dahilan bakit ang mga protestante ay domarami dahil bawat isa sa kanila insists that their individual understanding is the one which is correct.

I am so happy you ask that question. That is the most I expected from you.
Let me weave my point one by one.

1) The authority comes only from God. That is an axiom. Truth. Undebatable.

2) The Church (ekklesia, assembly of believers in Christ), has been established by Christ Himself as the chief cornerstone.

3) God instructs His church (people) through His Word.

4) God used prophets, apostles, and disciples as "holy men" to preserve His word in writing known as the scriptures (Bible).

5) God's holy men (writers) were not His pens. They were His penmen, meaning they wrote God's revelation in their own language and perception yet moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Pet 1:21,22).

6) If in case, because of linguistic inadequacy, who will interpret the scriptures since the penmen were already gone?

7) The Holy Spirit still speaks to those who seek to follow God's Words. That is an axiom. Undebatable. Truth. (john 16:13)

8) The Church (leadership of any church) must listen to the Holy Spirit for the scriptures were God-breathed (1 Tim 3:16).

9) The authority to interpret the scriptures should not come from the Church because it must be tested first if it contradicts the Bible Context or not.

10)Isaiah 8:20 (King James Version)
20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

11)1 John 4:1 (King James Version)
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

12) Every doctrine of the Church (any claiming church) must test or consult their doctrines from the Bible. Or else, they must not be following God's Word. They must have been following their own.

13)2 Timothy 2:15 (New International Version)
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. [meaning we handle the Word of God correctly in our study]

14)1 Corinthians 2:13 (New International Version)
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[So it is not safe to make doctrines voted by the Church, meaning not found in the Bible. It is evident here that the authority to interpret the Bible does not come from any claiming church]

15)Isaiah 28:9-10 (King James Version)
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: [meaning comparing of scriptures in the Bible. An honest student of the Word of God must compare all the writers of the Bible. If one believes that there is only one Author of the scriptures [God] then the Bible is ONE in "spirit and in truth."]

16) The BIBLE interprets itself. The Bible and the Bible alone. Sola Scriptura. Let God's word clarify every hard passages. Not the understanding of the Church or its leaders.

17) Is it really hard to trust the Word of God because one believes no one could interpret it?

18) Again, I say, The Bible is God-breathed or inspired. It speaks of God. It interprets itself.

19) What we need to do?

20)John 7:17 (King James Version)

17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

21)John 17:17 (King James Version)

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
22)Revelation 22:18-20 (King James Version)

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

23) [As we approach God's word with an open mind, He will guide us.

24)

Revelation 1:3 (King James Version)


3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

25) Not all the Teachings of the Church comes from the Word of God. They are traditions of your Church. Do you really believe them? For almost 2000 years already people believe what your Church has taught. People believe the Church (RC) as the authority of God. People miss the truth. People MUST trust His Word---The Bible.



This is my prayer for you, friend...God bless you.