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acpatagnan
03-23-2008, 08:40 AM
The issue between faith and reason has been an issue ever since man was born. First let us define exactly what is faith? What is reason? What is the difference between faith and reason? Can faith be mixed with reason? What is the result?

Anybody can contribute, joined and give your support to your ideas.

Let us begin by defining faith. According to the Webster's encyclopedic dictionary (The New Lexicon), faith is trust, confidence (in general), complete acceptance of a truth which cannot be demonstrated or proved by the process of logical thought (this refer to religious faith).

To simplify the meaning, faith is trusting someone you do not know or cannot be known. In religion, it is accepting without any verification of its reality or any support to proved any claim. You will absolutely agree to the definition if you fully understand it. But it is not difficult to comprehend the definitions.

Accepting something without any proof to support it validity is a very dangerous thing to do!!! Many are doing it. Why? You try to figure it out.
I will tell you next time.:)

agta
03-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Let us grant that Webster's definition is admitted. It says, "complete acceptance of a truth...". But your simplified meaning says, "trusting someone you do not know or cannot be known". Do you see the conflict between your definition and that of Webster's? Your definition trusts in someone you do not know. Something you do not know or cannot be known naturally is not truth. It is accepting something which is not truth. And by definition of Webster, it is therefore not faith because it is not truth that is accepted.

Jeff
03-24-2008, 02:33 PM
Faith is something you believe in somthing you believe unseen things that they exist something you hold on in your heart. Faith is more about what your heart believe.

Reason is something you justified because of physical presence, evidence facts and figures something you see, you touch and feel. How can a person can make reason if he or she is blind ever since he or she is a child?

There is no need for a complicated explanation about the difference of Faith and Reason at all.

acpatagnan
03-26-2008, 11:31 AM
According to the dictionary, faith is accepting without any or cannot be demonstrated by or proved by logical thought or by evidence in real facts. Truths are or can be proven. Right. If you claim as "true" and cannot prove it or cannot show to support any evidence then your claim as 'true" is not true at all.

In the early days, it was believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, the Catholic church accepted this as truth though no evidence to proved it. When Galileo came to proved based on scientific research that the Earth was not the center, the faith of the Church collapse. In order to saved from the collapse, the church persecuted Galileo.

When you accept a statement outright without any questions of its proofs or evidences from anybody is faith. When a mother said to her child that there is "aswang" don't go there, the first reaction or response of the child is to believed it without any question and obey. That is FAITH-a complete trust without any proof or evidence. If the child is brave enought to ask the question of the validity or the existence of "aswang", what is the reaction of the mother? Most mother will be mad and angry.

Its now very clear that faith is accepting something or trusting from someone a statement (or claims as "true") without any questions of its validity or proof to support.

Now, reason is just an opposite. Reason is thinking and thinking should be based on our senses. Our senses is our first contact with the real world. The data we received from our senses are processed in our mind to form concept. Knowledge are all conceptual. If concepts or ideas that are not based on the real world then that concepts are false, not true. Science is body of knowledge about the world. In physics, atoms cannot be seen by our eyes, but we have proof or evidence of its existence. In biology, there is our knowledge about DNA, but can you see it with you naked eyes? In chemistry, oxygen cannot be seen by our our naked eyes but there is a proof of its existence.

With regard to morality, the knowledge of what is right and wrong, which do you prefer as the basis? FAITH OR REASON? Whom do you prefer to trust or commit to? Someone who can provide proof to support his claim OR someone who just ask you to believe and obey? Is it not stupid thing to obey someone to kill your son by faith? (In the bible God asked Abraham to kill his son Isaac)

I have many things to say about the evil about faith (relgious faith) and its corruption of the man's mind.

Jeff
03-26-2008, 01:58 PM
According to the dictionary, faith is accepting without any or cannot be demonstrated by or proved by logical thought or by evidence in real facts. Truths are or can be proven. Right. If you claim as "true" and cannot prove it or cannot show to support any evidence then your claim as 'true" is not true at all.

In the early days, it was believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, the Catholic church accepted this as truth though no evidence to proved it. When Galileo came to proved based on scientific research that the Earth was not the center, the faith of the Church collapse. In order to saved from the collapse, the church persecuted Galileo.

When you accept a statement outright without any questions of its proofs or evidences from anybody is faith. When a mother said to her child that there is "aswang" don't go there, the first reaction or response of the child is to believed it without any question and obey. That is FAITH-a complete trust without any proof or evidence. If the child is brave enought to ask the question of the validity or the existence of "aswang", what is the reaction of the mother? Most mother will be mad and angry.

Its now very clear that faith is accepting something or trusting from someone a statement (or claims as "true") without any questions of its validity or proof to support.

Now, reason is just an opposite. Reason is thinking and thinking should be based on our senses. Our senses is our first contact with the real world. The data we received from our senses are processed in our mind to form concept. Knowledge are all conceptual. If concepts or ideas that are not based on the real world then that concepts are false, not true. Science is body of knowledge about the world. In physics, atoms cannot be seen by our eyes, but we have proof or evidence of its existence. In biology, there is our knowledge about DNA, but can you see it with you naked eyes? In chemistry, oxygen cannot be seen by our our naked eyes but there is a proof of its existence.

With regard to morality, the knowledge of what is right and wrong, which do you prefer as the basis? FAITH OR REASON? Whom do you prefer to trust or commit to? Someone who can provide proof to support his claim OR someone who just ask you to believe and obey? Is it not stupid thing to obey someone to kill your son by faith? (In the bible God asked Abraham to kill his son Isaac)

I have many things to say about the evil about faith (relgious faith) and its corruption of the man's mind.


WHY YOU ALWAYS LINK FAITH TO EVIL??? DO YOU THINK REASON NEVER LINK SOMEHOW TO EVIL??? MY GOODNESS... WHAT KIND OF MIND YOU HAVE?

agta
03-27-2008, 05:33 AM
According to the dictionary, faith is accepting without any or cannot be demonstrated by or proved by logical thought or by evidence in real facts.
You very well know that that is not the way Webster defines faith. Please read again your first post in this thread. Webster defines it as accepting a truth....

acpatagnan
03-27-2008, 10:16 AM
Yes,Agta. The dictionary definition is partly right-you accept truth without any proof or evidence is faith. But what is truth? What is true? Are truth or true things can be supported by evidence or proof or not? There is no such thing as hidden or unknown truth. What you observed around are they real and true or just an illusion created by your mind. The desktop computer in front of you, are they true and real or just an illusion created by your mind?

Faith is accepting something (being, principle etc) as "true" without any proof to support its claim-the validity of its statement. If a certain person stated and proclaim that there is a living organism in Mars, then you believe him and accepted his allegation by faith (without any questions of its truthfullness) then that is the MOST EVIL THING TO DO. Right? Believing something without any CERTAINTY of its proof or evidence and the use of logic that is faith. Clear?

Knowledge acquired by means of faith is not actually a knowledge at all. Then what is it? It is plain fantasy, imagination, or an illustion created by the mind.

Today, man's mind, his reason is being corrupted by faith (again). When you use reason, you have to put faith aside. When you want knowledge, what do you exactly use? You have to be honest. If you are honest enough your answer will be the MIND. If you want to know something, you have to think. The basis of your thinking are the data you received from your senses, from your observations. You observed reality. What happened to faith? You exactly tossed it aside, you put it aside and even throw it away. Right!!!

Hindi ba madaling unawain o intindihin ang mga ito? Maybe you're blinded by your faith. Don't you know that faith is exactly what your feelings or emotion is all about. Feelings are not our tools of knowledge, of cognition.

There is a very great difference between faith and reason. It can be said or described as BLACK AND WHITE, DEATH AND LIFE.

Next issue is with regards to MORALTY (knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, or true and false) What is the basis of your morality (ethics)? Is it by faith or by reason? What is the end result of each means?

Anybody else can joined and give your ideas.:)

By way, Jeff, you cannot linked evil to reason (the mind), objectively. I can cite lots of evil linked to faith. Lots of them are in the bible and in the koran.

Jeff
03-27-2008, 10:32 AM
Truth is not always be given or shown by proof, if your heart is pure and you understand the meaning of faith that you have then why need always searching for proof. Because if we only open our eyes as wide as we can same with our understanding, the proof that you said is around us. Go back and read the GENESIS in the bible and see the things around you.

Lets not make things complicated, make it simple we can't argue about what you are trying to imply there is no end of this debate. You have to kill first all the christian believers and others before you can insist about your hypothetical theories.

agta
03-27-2008, 10:36 PM
Yes,Agta. The dictionary definition is partly right-you accept truth without any proof or evidence is faith.

So, you mean to say that the dictionary is partly wrong! You are trying to say that you are more correct than the dictionary you cited in your first post in this thread. If that is what you are saying, then tell that to your children only, if you have any.


But what is truth? What is true? Are truth or true things can be supported by evidence or proof or not? There is no such thing as hidden or unknown truth. What you observed around are they real and true or just an illusion created by your mind. The desktop computer in front of you, are they true and real or just an illusion created by your mind?
The answer to those questions depend on the state of your mind.


Faith is accepting something (being, principle etc) as "true" without any proof to support its claim-the validity of its statement.
Here you are again making a definition that exists only in your imagination. Webster does not define it that way, you know that.


Next issue is with regards to MORALTY (knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, or true and false) What is the basis of your morality (ethics)? Is it by faith or by reason? What is the end result of each means?
You were the one who raised the issue of MORALITY, implying that you believe in morality. So, in that connection, I should be the one to ask you: Why do you believe in morality? What is your proof that morality exists?

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 07:26 PM
Truth is not always be given or shown by proof, if your heart is pure and you understand the meaning of faith that you have then why need always searching for proof. Because if we only open our eyes as wide as we can same with our understanding, the proof that you said is around us. Go back and read the GENESIS in the bible and see the things around you.

Lets not make things complicated, make it simple we can't argue about what you are trying to imply there is no end of this debate. You have to kill first all the christian believers and others before you can insist about your hypothetical theories.

What is TRUTH or true or reality? How do you know truth? or the true? or reality? Truth is the recognition of facts or the real. How? by the use of your mind. The desktop computer in front of you, is it true? or just an illusion created by your mind? How do you know? Reality, existence are absolute. Our consciousness (mind) is man's faculty of knowing reality, existence. Open your eyes what do you actually see? Man, animals, plants, rivers, mountains, ocean, seas, sky, moon, sun, planets, the universe (the natural things) and the man-made things: houses, buildings, cars, computers, schools, church, etc. THEY are REAL. THEY ARE ABSOLUTE. They are what they are. Existence exist. Existence is identity. Reality is identifiable. Consciousness (the attributes of living organism) is awareness of what exist. The mind (consciousness) is man's tool of knowing existence, reality, the truth. By using the mind, you will know the nature of things including the nature of the man, his mind. With the acquired knowledge you will know what to do (morality,actions).

You mentioned Genesis, in the story of Adam and Eve, why did God prohibited and banned the couple to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge? The tree of knowledge is your mind. By eating, by using your mind, you will know, you will acquired knowledge about reality, about what is right and wrong, what is good and evil. The alleged God do not want man to use his mind. God wants man to be like a robot, a very obedient robot. Since it is natural for man to think, God condemned man as naturally evil. In short, by using your mind your are evil, and that is exactly what the religion teaches. Right? If God created man, why did he condemn man as evil by nature. Is it not logical to say that God created evil? This is one of the proof that the bible is not the source of knowledge about reality. The bible is written by man. It is man made. And anything man-made are subject to questions of its validity, of its proof, of its truthfullness.

What I am doing is to identify, to clarify, and stated the real things. I am not forcing anybody to accept what I am stating. This is a forum. We are free to give statement and you are free to accept it or not. Truth is not something to be forced in the mind of others. Look at Islam, read the Koran. They use force. They even kill those who are not Islam and it is approved by Allah. The same with the Christianty brought to us by the Spaniards. They enforce Christianity; they even killed and persecuted our forefathers who did not accepted christianity.

You have to learned what is the nature of man, objectively, scientifically, by means of reason and logic. Do you know what is the nature of man, objectively? What is the nature of man according to religious faith in contrast to reason, science?

agta
03-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Reality, existence are absolute.
What do you mean by "existence are absolute"?

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 08:06 PM
TO AGTA,

The essence of faith, the basic fundamentals of faith is accepting and believing without any proof or evidence to support. That is exactly the meaning. Faith is equivalent to no proof or evidence that can be found in the real world. You believe and accept (whatever it is) without proof or evidence to support its validity. That's all.

What is morality? Why man needs morality? Moraliy or ethics are code of actions of what is right and wrong, what is good and evil. "" It is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions-the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life. Ethics or morality, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code. The first question that has to be answered, as a preconditioned of any attempt to define, to judge or to accept any specific system of ethics, is : WHY DOES MAN NEED A CODE OF VALUES? Let me stress this. The first question is NOT: what particular code of values should man accept? tHE FIRST QUESTION IS: Does man need values at all-- and why?""-from Ayn Rand lexicon.com

Bakit nga nating mga tao kailangan ng sistema ng kahalagahan o kaalaman kung ano ang tama or mali kung ano ang masama or mabuti? Bakit nga ba?

I have an answer. But how about you? What do you think? You have to use your thinking power, your reason? I will give the answer next time.:)

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 08:40 PM
TO AGTA,

Reality, existence is absolute. They are definite. They are independent from our consciousness. Existence is there separated, independent from our mind. The term existence is very wide term. The term refers to everything in this concrete world. There is no exact equivalent term in Filipino language. May own tagalog term is KAMAYROONAN. I derived it from the word exist in tagalog it is "mayroon". The moon exist. Animal exist. Rocks exist. Ibig sabihin mayroong buwan, mayroong hayop, mayroong bato. In contrast to "wala" in english nothing. Consciousness is also a very wide term. Consciousness refers to awareness. If something exist you are aware of it. If nothing exist, you will not aware of it
Existence, consciousness and identity are all philosophical terms. They are axioms. If something exist, you will be aware of it because you can identify it.:)

agta
03-28-2008, 08:46 PM
TO AGTA,

The essence of faith, the basic fundamentals of faith is accepting and believing without any proof or evidence to support.
Accepting and believing a what? The dictionary says, "accepting a truth". You do not have authority to use the dictionary and then remove an essential word from it. A truth is accepted regardless that at the time being, one may not be able to comprehend it fully. That is what your quoted dictionary basically says.



Bakit nga nating mga tao kailangan ng sistema ng kahalagahan o kaalaman kung ano ang tama or mali kung ano ang masama or mabuti? Bakit nga ba?

I have an answer. But how about you? What do you think? You have to use your thinking power, your reason? I will give the answer next time.:)
I don't believe you truly have an answer to those questions of yours. If you cannot reveal your answer here, then do not expect others to reveal theirs too. Then your attempt for this discussion will go to nowhere.

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 09:09 PM
To Agta,

The answer is easy to understand and it is what I can call common-sense. Why man needs value, morality or ethics? This was already answered by Ayn Rand, the one who formulated the philosophy of Objectivism. You can read it in her book, "The Virtue of Selfishness" or in Atlas Shrugged, her novel.

To simplify the answer, to briefly state it, we need morality, ethics in order to live. THE STANDARD VALUE IS LIFE. It is only to living organism that value, life is necessary. To lower form of living things, the plants and animals, the knowledge of how to live is automatic. To man, the knowledge on how to survive is not automatic. You have to discover and learned. But man is equipped to do it. He hasthe tool and that is his mind. Youronly choice is to use it or not. To know what is right and good for your life is use your mind, your reason. To observed reality. Rationality is the virtue. If you don't use your mind you will die.

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 09:24 PM
To Agta,

What is truth? What is reality? Hindi ba ang katotohan ay ang realidad. Ang katotohanan ay may mga proweba na nasa realidad. Nasagot ko na ito. Basahin mo lang ng mabuti sa mga posting ko.

Ang katotohanan ay nasa realidad na wala kang ibang gawin ay tanggapan ito. In english to recognized it and act accordingly.

Halimbawa: ang sikat ng araw ay mainit. Ano ba proweba na mainit ang sikat ng araw. Ang proweba ay nandyan lang. Magobserved ka. Gamitin mo ang pag-iisip mo. Truth can be discovered and learned by means of our mind. Ang katotohanan ay nandyan sa iyong paligid. Tuklasin mo lang. Papaano? Di ba sabi ko gamitin mo ang iyong pag-iisip.

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 09:32 PM
Ang mahirap kasi dahil sa FAITH, the mind is corrupted and paralized. It is either you use FAITH as your means of knowledge or REASON. The question is HOW DO YOU KNOW? It is either by FAITH OR REASON. Science is of reason, logic. Aristotle discovered logic.:)

How do you know there is such thing as supernatural being? Can you discover it by using your mind, your reason? You will accept it by faith, by feelings. Feeling (faith) mo lang na may Diyos, pero kung gagamitin mo ang pag-iisip, tuminggin ka paligid mo wala kang matutuklasan. What you will find are natural things, nature, and man-made thing-thing made out of natural things. di ba? ganun lang sa simply yun. Ang nagpapagulo lang ay ang faith. Di ba sabi ko ayaw ng Diyos ng Biblia na gamitin mo ang sarili mong pag-iisip. Ang gusto ng mga religion ay maging sunudsunuran ka lang gaya ng robot.

agta
03-28-2008, 09:41 PM
To Agta,

What is truth? What is reality? Hindi ba ang katotohan ay ang realidad. Ang katotohanan ay may mga proweba na nasa realidad. Nasagot ko na ito. Basahin mo lang ng mabuti sa mga posting ko.

You should read your posts very well so that you would understand what you are saying. For actually, you have not given a real answer, you simply go in circles. What is hot to you may not necessarily be hot to others. Each one may perceive things differently. So, if reality depends on the mind, then there is no objective reality at all, isn't it? For one may say: It is a hot day. While another may say: It is a warm day! Warm and hot are certainly not the same. So, what is the reality in that case then?

agta
03-28-2008, 09:49 PM
Ang mahirap kasi dahil sa FAITH, the mind is corrupted and paralized.
Now, you are certainly not talking of REALITY. You are simply talking of what gets into your mind. Do not expect that what you can conceive is all that is real in this world. How did you arrive to the conclusion that Faith corrupted and paralyzed the mind?

agta
03-28-2008, 10:02 PM
Aristotle discovered logic.:)

"Aristotle discovered logic"?

You think what you are declaring here is real? Is your declaration not simply a product of your wish? How real is that declaration?

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 10:33 PM
To Agta,

If you study in college, you will know it. Aristotle discovered logic. Just read history na lang. Read about something about the history of Greece or the Greeks or philosophy history.

It is either you know it (reality) by observation and evade. Evasion is not using the mind, the refusal to know.

Faith corrupted or paralyzed the mind. Simply lang, the mind is our tools of knowledge about reality. If you choose to use faith. wala ka na ibang gagawin believe ka nalang kung totoo man o hindi, kung may proweba man or wala. Then you set aside your mind, you tossed aside your thinking, your reason. If you used reasoning (because you cannot avoid using it, it is part of our nature), the basis is no longer connected to what is real. That is what I will call the misuse of the tool-not using the tool properly.

I will give you an example in the bible. God commanded Abraham to kill his son Isaac-to sacrifice his son. Pag-aaralan mo kung gagamitin ni Abraham ang kanyang isip hindi nya gagawin yun. Magtatanong siya. Bakit ko papatayin ang anak ko. Anak ko ito. Anong klaseng kautusan yan. Mapaparalyzed ang iyong pag-iisip. Ano gagawin mo? Gamitin mo ang FAITH mo huwag ang iyong pag-iisip. Sabi ng pari o kaya pastor. Huwag kanang puro tanong, sumunud ka nalang. Di ba? Ano ang nangyari sa mind mo as a tools of knowledge. Wala na paralyzed, inactive na.

agta
03-28-2008, 10:58 PM
To Agta,

If you study in college, you will know it. Aristotle discovered logic. Just read history na lang. Read about something about the history of Greece or the Greeks or philosophy history.
You better tell that to yourself. Review the history of Greece and there you will discover that nothing there says that it was Aristotle who discovered logic.



Faith corrupted or paralyzed the mind. Simply lang, the mind is our tools of knowledge about reality. If you choose to use faith. wala ka na ibang gagawin believe ka nalang kung totoo man o hindi, kung may proweba man or wala. Then you set aside your mind, you tossed aside your thinking, your reason.
What you are talking about is not faith but fanaticism. I wonder where got your concept of FAITH. If we go back to your cited dictionary, it did not say that faith is bellieve ng believe ka na lang kung totoo man o hindi. How many times do I have to repeat to you what the dictionary says? It says, essentially, "Acceptance of truth..." When the dictionary says acceptance of truth, do not include the untruth!
.



I will give you an example in the bible. God commanded Abraham to kill his son Isaac-to sacrifice his son. Pag-aaralan mo kung gagamitin ni Abraham ang kanyang isip hindi nya gagawin yun. Magtatanong siya. Bakit ko papatayin ang anak ko. Anak ko ito. Anong klaseng kautusan yan.
That is, if Abraham thinks the way you think. Contrary to what you think, Abraham made the best use of his mind. He knew that God has a word of honor. He knew that God would would not violate His promise to him that his descendants would be as much as the stars in heaven. He knew that he would not lose his only Son. Was he correct in his thinking? Yes! He was right. God did not allow Isaac to be killed. But if you were in the place of Abraham, I am sure you would use your mind erroneously.

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 11:03 PM
There is a morality of faith and the morality of reason. What is the difference?

First we must answer WHY MAN NEEDS morality or ethicx.

Ethics or morality is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions. We need morality in order to live and enjoy life. LIFE IS THE STANDARD. Our actions are towards the maintenance and enjoyment of our life. Before we can act we have to know the nature of things, nature of our actions. :) How are we going to acquire this knowledge-this code? The answer is either by REASON or by FAITH.:)

agta
03-28-2008, 11:07 PM
Ethics or morality is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions. We need morality in order to live and enjoy life. LIFE IS THE STANDARD. Our actions are towards the maintenance and enjoyment of our life. Before we can act we have to know the nature of things, nature of our actions. :) How are we going to acquire this knowledge-this code? The answer is either by REASON or by FAITH.:)
The answer is: both by REASON and FAITH.

agta
03-28-2008, 11:16 PM
deleted..........................this should be a new thread......

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 11:33 PM
To Agta,

You still don't get it-the essence of faith. It is the proof that there is exaclty a conflict between faith and reason.

The bible as I said is made up of stories. Stories about morality, the morality of faith. Religious faith fundamentally means faith in supernatural being. The source of knowledge is the supernatural being you call God, Allah or whatever name. The bible, or Koran are the written document where you can find most often the statement: " God said..." or "Allah said..." But there is no proof or evidence that it is God or Allah that realy said those statement. You accept it by faith. Agta may kilala ka bang pari or pastor. Ipapaliwanag nila kung ano ang faith.

If Abraham will ask question, "God why kill my son?" "One of your commandment said that 'Thou Shall not kill'" "Now you ask me to kill" "Is this not a contradictions?" This is nonsense. According to St. Agustine, I believe it because its absurd and nonsense. :) This is the morality of faith.

acpatagnan
03-28-2008, 11:57 PM
How are we going to acquired the knowledge of morality-the knowledge of what is right or wrong, of what is good or evil.

If your source of knowledge is faith in supernatural being, whatever God or Allah said you have to obey. What is the basic, the fundamental of the morality of faith? ALTRUISM. SELF-SACRIFICE, SELF-DENIAL, OBEDIENCE. This is the morality that you cannot practice fully, literally. This is the morality towards death. Jesus Christ is the symbol of altruism. His life is totally dedicated for God or for others. Can you enjoy on that kind of morality? Why?

How about the morality of reason? I will tell you next time.:)

agta
03-29-2008, 01:53 AM
How are we going to acquired the knowledge of morality-the knowledge of what is right or wrong, of what is good or evil.

If your source of knowledge is faith in supernatural being, whatever God or Allah said you have to obey. What is the basic, the fundamental of the morality of faith? ALTRUISM. SELF-SACRIFICE, SELF-DENIAL, OBEDIENCE. This is the morality that you cannot practice fully, literally. This is the morality towards death. Jesus Christ is the symbol of altruism. His life is totally dedicated for God or for others. Can you enjoy on that kind of morality? Why?

How about the morality of reason? I will tell you next time.:)
We will tell you our side after you have told yours.....

agta
03-29-2008, 02:09 AM
To Agta,

You still don't get it-the essence of faith. It is the proof that there is exaclty a conflict between faith and reason.
Now, here again, you are talking out only of your wild imagination. What proof are you talking about? It is either I don't get the essence of faith, or you yourself didn't get it. In your first post in this thread you pretended to give respect to the dictionary. But then, when you came to realize that the dictionary does not support your wished definition, you want help from a priest to explain to me what is faith? To tell you the truth, you cannot get from a priest to support your wrong definition of faith.


If Abraham will ask question, "God why kill my son?" "One of your commandment said that 'Thou Shall not kill'" "Now you ask me to kill" "Is this not a contradictions?" This is nonsense. According to St. Agustine, I believe it because its absurd and nonsense. :) This is the morality of faith.
Don't ever attempt to put words out of context into the mouth of St. Agustine. As I said in my previous post, Abraham would have asked those questions if he used his mind the way you are using yours now.. Unfortunately for you, he was not you.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 09:39 PM
To Agta,

Abraham was not actually using his mind. He was using faith-without any questioning the validity of the command given to him. He just accepted it by faith and obey. That is all.

This is what I am pointing out. Faith versus reason. If you use reason as the source of knowledge, then you have to kickout faith. Questioning is reasoning. Questioning even the existence of God-the supernatural, is knowing the validity or proof of its identity or existence.

Therefore, faith corrupted the very nature of the mind and make it paralyzed, inactive.:)

agta
03-29-2008, 09:50 PM
To Agta,

Abraham was not actually using his mind. He was using faith-without any questioning the validity of the command given to him. He just accepted it by faith and obey. That is all.

This is what I am pointing out. Faith versus reason. If you use reason as the source of knowledge, then you have to kickout faith. Questioning is reasoning. Questioning even the existence of God-the supernatural, is knowing the validity or proof of its identity or existence.

Therefore, faith corrupted the very nature of the mind and make it paralyzed, inactive.:)
On the contrary, Abraham used his mind perfectly! Within his mind he did not find necessity to question the validity of the command given to him. Questioning is reasoning? That depends upon whether the question is necessary. Why question if you already know the answer. Abraham knew the answer. He was more gifted than you.
You want to question the existence of God? Then start a new thread about your question.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 09:53 PM
Do not say that you're afraid to trust your mind because you know so little. Are you safer in surrendering in surrendering to mystics and discarding the little you know? Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life. Redeem your mind from the hockshops of authority. Accept the fact that you are not omniscient, but playing a zombie will not give you omniscience. Accept the fact that you mind is fallible, but becoming mindless will not make you infallible. Accept the fact that an error made on your own is safer than ten truths accepted on faith, because the first leaves you the means to correct it, but the second destroys your capacity to distinguish truth from error. ---From Galt's speech in the novel "Atlas Shrugged" written by Ayn Rand. :)

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 10:05 PM
To Agta,

How did Abraham knew what he was obeying was right or wrong. Killing a son is wrong and evil. Now an unknown, alleged God asking him to do it! Was it reasonable to do? To activate your mind is to question. This is contrary or against faith-which you accept it without any questions for its reason. Understand? This is the proof or evidence that faith really paralyzed thinking. By using faith, Abraham put aside and disregard any thinking on his part. By believing whatever this supernatural being asked, his reasoning mind was put to nothing-paralyzed, inactive. He acted like a zombie or a robot operated by a remote control.:)

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 10:15 PM
Faith as the means of knowledge is contrary to reason. Faith is just like a guts feeling or emotion. The root caused of feeling or emotion is subconscious mind. The subconscious mind that contains false premises, false teaching acquired since birth resulting to blind faith.

agta
03-29-2008, 10:18 PM
To Agta,

How did Abraham knew what he was obeying was right or wrong. Killing a son is wrong and evil. Now an unknown, alleged God asking him to do it! Was it reasonable to do? To activate your mind is to question. This is contrary or against faith-which you accept it without any questions for its reason. Understand? This is the proof or evidence that faith really paralyzed thinking. By using faith, Abraham put aside and disregard any thinking on his part. By believing whatever this supernatural being asked, his reasoning mind was put to nothing-paralyzed, inactive. He acted like a zombie or a robot operated by a remote control.:)
Abraham knew that God would not allow his son to be killed. This knowledge of his was founded on the covenant that God made with him prior to that command. He knew that the person he covenanted with was trustworthy as he was. That is why he knew that his son would not be killed. Do you understand that too? The command may have appeared unreasonable, but Abraham reasoned deep within his mind that the command was not to be worried about. He knew that his son would not die! Therefore, Abraham was not acting like a zombie. He simply was more intelligent than you are!

agta
03-29-2008, 10:22 PM
Faith as the means of knowledge is contrary to reason. Faith is just like a guts feeling or emotion. The root caused of feeling or emotion is subconscious mind. The subconscious mind that contains false premises, false teaching acquired since birth resulting to blind faith.
You still do not understand what is FAITH. You are still insisting in your imagined definition of faith.

agta
03-29-2008, 10:25 PM
Do not say that you're afraid to trust your mind because you know so little. Are you safer in surrendering in surrendering to mystics and discarding the little you know? Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life. Redeem your mind from the hockshops of authority. Accept the fact that you are not omniscient, but playing a zombie will not give you omniscience. Accept the fact that you mind is fallible, but becoming mindless will not make you infallible. Accept the fact that an error made on your own is safer than ten truths accepted on faith, because the first leaves you the means to correct it, but the second destroys your capacity to distinguish truth from error. ---From Galt's speech in the novel "Atlas Shrugged" written by Ayn Rand. :)
Galt was talking like a zombie. He did not know what he was talking about.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 10:27 PM
To Agta,

If you say that Abraham used his mind perfectly, you do not know the exact nature of man's mind-how the mind operates, the function of reason. The only reason that I can find is that is the result of our present method of educations-especially those schools under religious sector. Mixing faith with reason is just like mixing poison with food and the result is death.

agta
03-29-2008, 10:38 PM
To Agta,

If you say that Abraham used his mind perfectly, you do not know the exact nature of man's mind-how the mind operates, the function of reason. The only reason that I can find is that is the result of our present method of educations-especially those schools under religious sector. Mixing faith with reason is just like mixing poison with food and the result is death.
That would be true if FAITH is the same as FANATICISM. But it is not. You want to define faith as fanaticism, and that is wrong!

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Man's mind is the tools of knowledge. The question HOW DO YOU KNOW is a question about method of how you acquired knowledge.

If you proclaim that there is "aswang", can you support your statement by using the tool which is your mind. Your mind will asked how do you know there is 'aswang"? What will be your answer? If you are honest and do not evade the facts of reality, your answer will be "aswang does not exist there is no proof or evidences your mind can find. So the same with the existence of God or any supernatural being. The only thing you will do is accept it by faith, by believisng that there is though no proof because of fear. The fear of the unknown introduced by parents and religious authorities.

agta
03-29-2008, 11:00 PM
Man's mind is the tools of knowledge. The question HOW DO YOU KNOW is a question about method of how you acquired knowledge.

If you proclaim that there is "aswang", can you support your statement by using the tool which is your mind. Your mind will asked how do you know there is 'aswang"? What will be your answer? If you are honest and do not evade the facts of reality, your answer will be "aswang does not exist there is no proof or evidences your mind can find. So the same with the existence of God or any supernatural being. The only thing you will do is accept it by faith, by believisng that there is though no proof because of fear. The fear of the unknown introduced by parents and religious authorities.
Now, you come to "aswang". What is "aswang"? A creature that eats man? Ok, assuming that aswang is a creature that eats man, and then a person one night while walking in the dark alone was attacked by a creature and attempted to be eaten, and the following day he talks about his experience of the previous night, what then would you say of his experience? Would you just say, "[I] Oh, it is only faith of yours. It is not real." ?

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 11:05 PM
The root word of knowledge is know. What is knowledge? Knowledge is the result of knowing. How? By using your mind, by observations. The data you received are processed in the mind to form concept. The data are out there-the reality, the concrete, material world. Knowledge then are conceptual. Words are concepts acting as symbols to retained in our memory.

This is the nature of man's mind. This is the nature that the Bible, the religion is condemning and denying. This is what makes man evil by nature according to the religious premises. You don't have to use reason but faith and obedience as the morality of the relgious authority.:)

agta
03-29-2008, 11:10 PM
The root word of knowledge is know. What is knowledge? Knowledge is the result of knowing. How? By using your mind, by observations. The data you received are processed in the mind to form concept. The data are out there-the reality, the concrete, material world. Knowledge then are conceptual. Words are concepts acting as symbols to retained in our memory.

This is the nature of man's mind. This is the nature that the Bible, the religion is condemning and denying. This is what makes man evil by nature according to the religious premises. You don't have to use reason but faith and obedience as the morality of the relgious authority.:)
You are talking out of your prejudices. It is absolutely not true that faith condemns man's mind. When shall you wake-up and realize that faith is not fanaticism?

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 11:15 PM
Man's mind has the capacity to fantasize, to image. Supernatural being like aswang, tikbalang, angels, fairys,shriek, gremlin, god, allah, bathala are all but imaginations without any basis in the real word. Where can we find then? Of course in comics, in literatures like the bible,Koran, in televisions, in movies. :):D

agta
03-29-2008, 11:21 PM
Man's mind has the capacity to fantasize, to image. Supernatural being like aswang, tikbalang, angels, fairys,shriek, gremlin, god, allah, bathala are all but imaginations without any basis in the real word. Where can we find then? Of course in comics, in literatures like the bible,Koran, in televisions, in movies. :):D
That would be true if each individual experiences are false unless experienced by you. But it is out of this world to think that other's experience must be measured by your experience in order to be true, such that unless you experience them, all experiences that others would have had are false.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 11:29 PM
Christianity is based on tlhe literature called the Bible while in Islam the Koran. However, in Christianity it is still subdivided to Catholics and Protestant. In Roman Catholics, most of their teachings were from their authority which is the Pope in Vatican. They are mixture from the Bible and from whatever studies(?) the Vatican reached at. All in all, the main point is the belief in supernatural being. Faith in supernatural. They believed in two reality. The reality today here where we are now and the second reality that is the beyond-the afterlife. These are what they call "divine knowledge". Knowledge coming from supernatural being. How? BY FAITH--no proof or evidences to be found in the real world. This is against reason, science and technology.:)

agta
03-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Christianity is based on tlhe literature called the Bible while in Islam the Koran. However, in Christianity it is still subdivided to Catholics and Protestant. In Roman Catholics, most of their teachings were from their authority which is the Pope in Vatican. They are mixture from the Bible and from whatever studies(?) the Vatican reached at. All in all, the main point is the belief in supernatural being. Faith in supernatural. They believed in two reality. The reality today here where we are now and the second reality that is the beyond-the afterlife. These are what they call "divine knowledge". Knowledge coming from supernatural being. How? BY FAITH--no proof or evidences to be found in the real world. This is against reason, science and technology.:)
No! Christianity is not based on the bible. The bible simply bears witness to Christianity. Christianity existed before the bible came to existence. Christianity is based on Christ.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 11:41 PM
What's the difference is believing in aswang, tikbalang, shriek, fairies, and believing in God, Allah, Bathala, angels, demons, satan? NOTHING. Faith without any proof or evidences. They are all the product of the mind's imagination and fantasy. That's how powerfull the mind is!!! But all those imagination represents about good and evil-morality. Aswang, demons, satan represents or symbolizes evil while angels, god, allah, bathala represents good. Crucifixion symbolixes death.

On this thread what I am telling is about morality. Morality based on faith and the morality based on REASON.

acpatagnan
03-29-2008, 11:46 PM
Christian ethics, Islam ethic are example of morality based on faith. And there is a morality based on reason and ethics is a science about good and evil.:):D This is called objectivist ethics, ethics based on objective reality acquired by reason.

agta
03-30-2008, 12:05 AM
What's the difference is believing in aswang, tikbalang, shriek, fairies, and believing in God, Allah, Bathala, angels, demons, satan? NOTHING. Faith without any proof or evidences. They are all the product of the mind's imagination and fantasy. That's how powerfull the mind is!!! But all those imagination represents about good and evil-morality. Aswang, demons, satan represents or symbolizes evil while angels, god, allah, bathala represents good. Crucifixion symbolixes death.

On this thread what I am telling is about morality. Morality based on faith and the morality based on REASON.
Repeat: Do not expect that other's experience must be experienced by you in order to be true. Just because you did not see or experience what others saw or experienced it does not follow that their experiences are false. For it is possible that you simply lacked the experience.

agta
03-30-2008, 12:06 AM
Christian ethics, Islam ethic are example of morality based on faith. And there is a morality based on reason and ethics is a science about good and evil.:):D This is called objectivist ethics, ethics based on objective reality acquired by reason.
In summary, you talked nothing!

agta
03-30-2008, 12:08 AM
Christian ethics, Islam ethic are example of morality based on faith. And there is a morality based on reason and ethics is a science about good and evil.:):D This is called objectivist ethics, ethics based on objective reality acquired by reason.
You do not know what you are talking! There is no such thing as Christian ethics. All there is is ETHICS.

acpatagnan
04-01-2008, 09:51 AM
To Agta,

You have to do your research. Ask any priest or pastor or any professor of philosophy.

You have to learn what is essentials or fundamentals or basics. You have to learn how your mind works and what is its goal.

Ethics is a code to guide man's choices and actions. How do you acquire the knowledge of code? Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and many others are all religion that have been offering us morality based on faith.

The other ethics is based on science or reason. And this is what I am trying to convey to all young people in Biliran and to all. There is an ethics based only on science or reason.:)

agta
04-01-2008, 09:34 PM
To Agta,

You have to do your research. Ask any priest or pastor or any professor of philosophy.

You have to learn what is essentials or fundamentals or basics. You have to learn how your mind works and what is its goal.

Ethics is a code to guide man's choices and actions. How do you acquire the knowledge of code? Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and many others are all religion that have been offering us morality based on faith.

The other ethics is based on science or reason. And this is what I am trying to convey to all young people in Biliran and to all. There is an ethics based only on science or reason.:)
Then show us all here right now your ethics which is based only on science or reason!
You seem to presume too much, more than you could chew. Had you not read all posts in this thread? If you did, you should have remembered that I already told you that no priest would ever support your definition of faith! (Pls. see post#29) So don't tell me again to ask a priest about that because you do not know where I studied and graduated!

(Try to learn how to make links here to your references so that you would not appear talking about nothing.)

hedwig
04-03-2008, 06:14 PM
...well for me ..

Faith is a profound belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or trust in a particular truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth), or in a doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) that expresses such a truth. Formal usage of the word "faith" is largely reserved for concepts of religion, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) (therefore spirituality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality) and spiritual immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality)), or else in a Supreme Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Being) and their role as a guide for people moving into an experience of such reality.
Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as "trust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_%28social_sciences%29)," "belief," or "hope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope)". For example, the word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. (For informal uses of the word "faith",. As with "trust," faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes

Reason is the use of logical faculties to arrive at truth it is a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion

agta
04-03-2008, 06:45 PM
...well for me ..

Faith is a profound belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or trust in a particular truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth), or in a doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) that expresses such a truth. Formal usage of the word "faith" is largely reserved for concepts of religion, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) (therefore spirituality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality) and spiritual immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality)), or else in a Supreme Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Being) and their role as a guide for people moving into an experience of such reality.
Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as "trust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_%28social_sciences%29)," "belief," or "hope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope)". For example, the word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. (For informal uses of the word "faith",. As with "trust," faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes

Reason is the use of logical faculties to arrive at truth it is a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion
That's a good definition, hedwig.

acpatagnan
04-04-2008, 11:47 AM
...well for me ..

Faith is a profound belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or trust in a particular truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth), or in a doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) that expresses such a truth. Formal usage of the word "faith" is largely reserved for concepts of religion, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) (therefore spirituality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality) and spiritual immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality)), or else in a Supreme Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Being) and their role as a guide for people moving into an experience of such reality.
Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as "trust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_%28social_sciences%29)," "belief," or "hope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope)". For example, the word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. (For informal uses of the word "faith",. As with "trust," faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes

Reason is the use of logical faculties to arrive at truth it is a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion

What is truth? What is true? How do you arrived at the knowledge of what is true or false. According to religion it is written in the Bible or it is written in the Doctrine of the church (whatever church it is). What you will do, if you are a member of that church, is just to ACCEPT BY FAITH without any question of its validity or proof or evidences to support. Or just trust the church. (And this is dangerous!)
Based on church history, if you question your faith you will be excommunicated or persecuted.

You are right, the method of reason is logic and the BASIS is reality-the real, concrete world-existence.

What you mean by transcending reality is going beyond the natural. Supenaturals are that which is beyond the natural things. This is the view of religion with regards to nature of things or reality. It is contrary to this: Nature are bind by natural laws, therefore, stable, fixed and identifiable. They exist and they are identififable. Our consciousness (the mind which is the proof of what you call spirit) is to be aware of that existence. Our consciousness is man's faculty of awareness of that which exist. You cannot be aware or conscious of nothing, or that which does not exist. Man's first contact with reality (the real world-the natural things) is his sense organ. Then processed it by his mind to form concepts and the method of logic-the system of non-contradictions.. Thus knowledge is conceptual. Concepts connected to reality-the real concrete world. Science is a body or a compilation of knowledge (truth) about reality, the world, the universe.

Now which do you trust for your life's survival: reason-SCIENCE or faith as the source of your knowledge? Be honest. Do not evade!:):D

In addition, supernatural things do not exist! Only natural things exist.:):D

hedwig
04-04-2008, 03:53 PM
.. i'm not evading.. i'm just trying to stress out what is realy the issue here.. its all about .. FAITH or REASON.. I'm just giving what is my understanding and my point of view about these words FAITH and the word REASON...
.. and were' are not talking about the truth, true or whatever...just plainely about what is your stand about the word faith and the word reason...and if you talk about the existence of having faith and reason,, on my own point of view, you have the reason for having a faith. I mean you cannot live or exist with faith alone without the reason... thats why you have your faith because of some reasons.. a certains things exist because of there is reason behind it...

agta
04-04-2008, 08:57 PM
.. i'm not evading.. i'm just trying to stress out what is realy the issue here.. its all about .. FAITH or REASON.. I'm just giving what is my understanding and my point of view about these words FAITH and the word REASON...
.. and were' are not talking about the truth, true or whatever...just plainely about what is your stand about the word faith and the word reason...and if you talk about the existence of having faith and reason,, on my own point of view, you have the reason for having a faith. I mean you cannot live or exist with faith alone without the reason... thats why you have your faith because of some reasons.. a certains things exist because of there is reason behind it...

Yeah, that's right! In fact, we have faith precisely because we have reason. Reason is part of human nature. It cannot be separated from his humanity. Without reason, there is no faith to speak of but purely FANATICISM. And that is the error of acpatagnan. He equated FAITH and FANATICISM.

agta
04-04-2008, 09:06 PM
What is truth? What is true? How do you arrived at the knowledge of what is true or false. According to religion it is written in the Bible or it is written in the Doctrine of the church (whatever church it is). What you will do, if you are a member of that church, is just to ACCEPT BY FAITH without any question of its validity or proof or evidences to support. Or just trust the church. (And this is dangerous!)
Based on church history, if you question your faith you will be excommunicated or persecuted.

You have a wrong knowledge about the teachings of the Church. The Church never teaches that nothing is true except alone what is written in the bible. It is not the Church that teaches that SOLA SCRIPTURA thing! In the contrary it is the rebels against the Church that teaches that, the protestants.

You also have a distorted knowledge of history. For it is not true that simply questioning Church teachings would make a person excommunicated or persecuted. That is a lie! When you state in this forum something which is controversial, you should support it with references and links for verification.

acpatagnan
04-04-2008, 09:34 PM
To hedwig,

The thread is title: Faith versus Reason. What I am trying to point out is that faith is opposite of reason. To know why, first we have to defined what faith exactly is and what is reason. The faith I am refering to specifically is religious faith.

Yes, your are right about the formal definition of faith which I refer to be religious faith. If the informal usage of faith is trust, then we can ask: Can you trust the religious faith? Can you trust faith as a means of acquiring knowledge. Knowledge is the outcome, the future events. Knowledge is truth. Truth is the recognition of facts of reality. Reason, knowledge, truth, reality are all connected. They are all philosophical abstractions and concept.

In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

What do you mean by transcendent reality? You mean beyond reality?
What is religious faith? Is it not the belief on supernatural things, or Supreme being without any proof or evidence in reality. What is existence? Existence refers to everything. They are true and real. Reality is existence. They are independent from our consciuosness (mind). What is the function of consciousness, the mind? That is to be aware of that which exist. To percieve that which exist. If nothing exist there is nothing to aware, to percieve. to investigate. to observe. To be conscious of nothing is a contradiction.

What is spirit? Is it not what you call spirit is the attributes of the body which is the mind. What is the nature of the spirit?:):D;)

hedwig
04-05-2008, 01:49 PM
To hedwig,

The thread is title: Faith versus Reason. What I am trying to point out is that faith is opposite of reason. To know why, first we have to defined what faith exactly is and what is reason. The faith I am refering to specifically is religious faith.

Yes, your are right about the formal definition of faith which I refer to be religious faith. If the informal usage of faith is trust, then we can ask: Can you trust the religious faith? Can you trust faith as a means of acquiring knowledge. Knowledge is the outcome, the future events. Knowledge is truth. Truth is the recognition of facts of reality. Reason, knowledge, truth, reality are all connected. They are all philosophical abstractions and concept.

In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

What do you mean by transcendent reality? You mean beyond reality?
What is religious faith? Is it not the belief on supernatural things, or Supreme being without any proof or evidence in reality. What is existence? Existence refers to everything. They are true and real. Reality is existence. They are independent from our consciuosness (mind). What is the function of consciousness, the mind? That is to be aware of that which exist. To percieve that which exist. If nothing exist there is nothing to aware, to percieve. to investigate. to observe. To be conscious of nothing is a contradiction.

What is spirit? Is it not what you call spirit is the attributes of the body which is the mind. What is the nature of the spirit?:):D;)


.. ok you talk about faith versus reason ... it is a simple thing...faith is the profound belief to arrive truth,, and reason is the use of logical faculties to arrive truth ... so..the same.. kumbaga diffrent ways to arrive one answer... in mathematics. differents stpes or procedure to arrive the correct answer.. faith and reason could not be separated. would you think you will exist in this world only reason? without faith? ..or faith alone without reason?..

agta
04-05-2008, 02:43 PM
The thread is title: Faith versus Reason. What I am trying to point out is that faith is opposite of reason. To know why, first we have to defined what faith exactly is and what is reason. The faith I am refering to specifically is religious faith.
Actually, the faith that you defined in your mind is not religious faith but FANATICISM. That is revealed in your various posts here.


In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.
So you believe that even pigs have reasoning mind because pigs live too.

hedwig
04-07-2008, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by acpatagnan http://www.biliranisland.com/forum/images/element/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.biliranisland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5120#post5120)
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind..

...ok,, in order to live to have knowledge and to know how and we need food.. so .. the there is a reason why we need knowledge so that we can know that we need food and because of that kinowledge,, we can have faith to find food.. we cannot consider that faith could be against ffrom reason as reason vice versa..

acpatagnan
04-07-2008, 09:21 PM
Actually, the faith that you defined in your mind is not religious faith but FANATICISM. That is revealed in your various posts here.


So you believe that even pigs have reasoning mind because pigs live too.

Can pigs produce or cook his own food?:D

acpatagnan
04-07-2008, 09:30 PM
According to religion, they have knowledge about the supernatural being?
How do they arrived to that kind of knowledge? Is it by means of reason or mind or consciousness? If by means of reason, mind or consciousness there must be a proof or evidence that can be found in reality, in real world we live in.:)

agta
04-09-2008, 08:09 PM
Can pigs produce or cook his own food?:D
What do you think? I am sure your answer to that question would be the same as my answer. And that is the point I wanted to raise, because that simply would destroy your following statement:

Originally Posted by acpatagnan View Post
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

Clearly, it is not all the time true that in order to live we have to know how to live.. The pigs do not know how to produce or cook their own food, but they live. The birds of the air does not sow or plow the fields but they live.
Finally, the fetus inside the womb of the mother does not know how to live but it lives there.

agta
04-09-2008, 08:21 PM
According to religion, they have knowledge about the supernatural being?
How do they arrived to that kind of knowledge? Is it by means of reason or mind or consciousness? If by means of reason, mind or consciousness there must be a proof or evidence that can be found in reality, in real world we live in.:)
As I have said many times in this thread, by their personal experiences with that supernatural being. Do not expect that their experiences, in order to be true, must be experienced by you. No. For certainly your personal experiences is not the measure of all truths.

acpatagnan
04-17-2008, 10:50 AM
As I have said many times in this thread, by their personal experiences with that supernatural being. Do not expect that their experiences, in order to be true, must be experienced by you. No. For certainly your personal experiences is not the measure of all truths.

We all have the same experiences. When the sunlight struck your skin all of us will experience the heat. When the wind waves across you skin we all experiences it. When the light struck the red rose, you experience the beauty of its color and you experience the sweet smell in the morning. We all experiences through our senses all things in this world we live in. All of us have emotions and feelings-fear, anger, jealousy, joy etc. They are all the result of our deepest thoughts. Emotions/feelings are not our source of knowledge. Supernatural things are the results of pure fantasy and imagination. You cannot experienced the supernatural through your senses because there is no such thing as supernatural. There are only natural things that man can experienced.

acpatagnan
04-17-2008, 11:26 AM
What do you think? I am sure your answer to that question would be the same as my answer. And that is the point I wanted to raise, because that simply would destroy your following statement:

Originally Posted by acpatagnan View Post
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

Clearly, it is not all the time true that in order to live we have to know how to live.. The pigs do not know how to produce or cook their own food, but they live. The birds of the air does not sow or plow the fields but they live.
Finally, the fetus inside the womb of the mother does not know how to live but it lives there.

Lower forms of consciusness like the animals and plants have their own nature of living. Animals and plants adapted naturally in the environment they live in. Animals hunts other species in order to live. When there is flood they perished and dies. Same with the plants. Remember the dinasours. When the soil is fertile the plants survived. Can plants survived in the desert? How about man? To protect from the elements of the environment you have to think, to figure out how to built a house, to make clothes to protect from colds. to cook nutritiuos food using fire. We can make soil fertile to plant for food. The primitive men at first eat raw. When they discovered the fire, the food they eat becomes tastefull and delicious. In short, man cannot live like the animals and plants. Man has a different nature from the animals. Man is highest form of consciusness-he has mind. WE have to live like a man with a mind as a tool of knowledge. Man's nature is that he is a thinking being. Thinking is his tool of knowledge about reality in order to survive, to live, to grow mentally and physically, to achieve the efficiency and the betterment of life. to achieve happiness. When diseases and sickness strike the animals and plants, they dies eventually, But men uses his mind to figure out how to cure. Now we have the most advances in medicines that the animal cannot achieved.

Now ask yourself, do you want to live like an animal or plants. That is what the bible is asking you to do.:)

hedwig
04-19-2008, 12:17 PM
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

.. i disagree on this idea because not all living organism know how to produce foods but they are only dependent on thier enviroment like for example the low class form of animals as what stated. and they live and exist because of the natural environment..naturalisa, they dont know how to produce food only plants and human can produce food from its resources..

.. now lets go back to the main topic about reason and faith ...now does an animal hava a faith so that they can produce food specifically the low level form.e.i. the pig?.. they have a reason themselves so that they can find or produce food?

newmoonmaiden
04-30-2008, 04:17 PM
T_T my goodness.

I see the attempt at a coherent debate, but a conversation where the participants can't even comprehend the definition is not an intelligent debate...

Which leads to the conclusion, that faith in tradition (and therefore religion) is what people resort to when they cannot reason for themselves. :(

newmoonmaiden
04-30-2008, 04:20 PM
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

.. i disagree on this idea because not all living organism know how to produce foods but they are only dependent on thier enviroment like for example the low class form of animals as what stated. and they live and exist because of the natural environment..naturalisa, they dont know how to produce food only plants and human can produce food from its resources..

.. now lets go back to the main topic about reason and faith ...now does an animal hava a faith so that they can produce food specifically the low level form.e.i. the pig?.. they have a reason themselves so that they can find or produce food?

animals find food through the natural urges that push them to eat, in other words instinct.

Instinct is something that can be related neither to reason nor faith, because it is not a conscious thing. Instinct is subconscious. Faith or belief is conscious. Reasoning is also conscious.

hedwig
05-01-2008, 01:34 PM
animals find food through the natural urges that push them to eat, in other words instinct.

Instinct is something that can be related neither to reason nor faith, because it is not a conscious thing. Instinct is subconscious. Faith or belief is conscious. Reasoning is also conscious.


The issue between faith and reason has been an issue ever since man was born. First let us define exactly what is faith? What is reason? What is the difference between faith and reason? Can faith be mixed with reason? What is the result?

Originaly posted by acpataganan ---->
Anybody can contribute, joined and give your support to your ideas.

Let us begin by defining faith. According to the Webster's encyclopedic dictionary (The New Lexicon), faith is trust, confidence (in general), complete acceptance of a truth which cannot be demonstrated or proved by the process of logical thought (this refer to religious faith).

To simplify the meaning, faith is trusting someone you do not know or cannot be known. In religion, it is accepting without any verification of its reality or any support to proved any claim. You will absolutely agree to the definition if you fully understand it. But it is not difficult to comprehend the definitions.

Accepting something without any proof to support it validity is a very dangerous thing to do!!! Many are doing it. Why? You try to figure it out.
I will tell you next time.:)

According to the dictionary, faith is accepting without any or cannot be demonstrated by or proved by logical thought or by evidence in real facts. Truths are or can be proven. Right. If you claim as "true" and cannot prove it or cannot show to support any evidence then your claim as 'true" is not true at all.

In the early days, it was believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, the Catholic church accepted this as truth though no evidence to proved it. When Galileo came to proved based on scientific research that the Earth was not the center, the faith of the Church collapse. In order to saved from the collapse, the church persecuted Galileo.

When you accept a statement outright without any questions of its proofs or evidences from anybody is faith. When a mother said to her child that there is "aswang" don't go there, the first reaction or response of the child is to believed it without any question and obey. That is FAITH-a complete trust without any proof or evidence. If the child is brave enought to ask the question of the validity or the existence of "aswang", what is the reaction of the mother? Most mother will be mad and angry.

Its now very clear that faith is accepting something or trusting from someone a statement (or claims as "true") without any questions of its validity or proof to support.

Now, reason is just an opposite. Reason is thinking and thinking should be based on our senses. Our senses is our first contact with the real world. The data we received from our senses are processed in our mind to form concept. Knowledge are all conceptual. If concepts or ideas that are not based on the real world then that concepts are false, not true. Science is body of knowledge about the world. In physics, atoms cannot be seen by our eyes, but we have proof or evidence of its existence. In biology, there is our knowledge about DNA, but can you see it with you naked eyes? In chemistry, oxygen cannot be seen by our our naked eyes but there is a proof of its existence.

With regard to morality, the knowledge of what is right and wrong, which do you prefer as the basis? FAITH OR REASON? Whom do you prefer to trust or commit to? Someone who can provide proof to support his claim OR someone who just ask you to believe and obey? Is it not stupid thing to obey someone to kill your son by faith? (In the bible God asked Abraham to kill his son Isaac)

I have many things to say about the evil about faith (relgious faith) and its corruption of the man's mind.....


.. these are some the ideas of the author of this topic..about faith and reason..

newmoonmaiden
05-01-2008, 05:35 PM
.. these are some the ideas of the author of this topic..about faith and reason..

the definition wasn't his idea, it was the definition given by the dictionary, what i was trying to clarify is that Instinct is not a thing that depends on faith nor reason.

Animals will instinctively look for food whether or not they believe that there will be food, hence the disconnection to faith.

Animals look for food without reasoning why they need food, hence the disconnection to reason. My point did not go against the definitions of faith or reason.

It becomes a thing of faith and reason when animals believe there will always be food in that area and start building homes nearby. They have a belief that sprouts from a reason- there has always been food, in where they conclude that there will always BE food, where reason is seen. This is the only part where the thinking process is working. Faith and reason are components of the thinking process. Instinct is not.

agta
05-01-2008, 09:35 PM
We all have the same experiences. When the sunlight struck your skin all of us will experience the heat. When the wind waves across you skin we all experiences it. When the light struck the red rose, you experience the beauty of its color and you experience the sweet smell in the morning. We all experiences through our senses all things in this world we live in. All of us have emotions and feelings-fear, anger, jealousy, joy etc. They are all the result of our deepest thoughts. Emotions/feelings are not our source of knowledge. Supernatural things are the results of pure fantasy and imagination. You cannot experienced the supernatural through your senses because there is no such thing as supernatural. There are only natural things that man can experienced.

"We all have the same experiences"? That is not true! Those people in the antartic region who did not have the capacity to come to the Philippines never experienced the heat of the sun that we experience here. That fact alone sufficiently disproves your statement.

Similarly, those who were never given the opportunity to personally experience God's presence certainly never personally experienced His real presence. But surely, their non-experience of Him cannot be claimed to be a proof that He is not real.

agta
05-01-2008, 10:01 PM
Thinking is his tool of knowledge about reality in order to survive, to live, to grow mentally and physically, to achieve the efficiency and the betterment of life. to achieve happiness. When diseases and sickness strike the animals and plants, they dies eventually, But men uses his mind to figure out how to cure. Now we have the most advances in medicines that the animal cannot achieved.

Now ask yourself, do you want to live like an animal or plants. That is what the bible is asking you to do.:)
It can be true that "Thinking is his tool of knowledge...."
if by the word "thinking" we mean "mind", otherwise, "thinking" cannot be considered a tool. It would be considered a process. Now, by the correct use of his mind, man can arrive at an ultimate truth. For example: If A + B = 20 and B= 7, therefore, by using the mind correctly, we can arrive at the truth that A=13.

However, if a supernatural being made His real presence experienced by a man, personally revealing Himself to him as a loving God and Father, and always personally accompanied him, then his mind would inevitably arrive at the conclusion that there indeed is God. Clearly, therefore, his faith in God is a product of his reason and not of fantasy. And that disproves your belief that the bible is asking us "to live like an animal or plants".

newmoonmaiden
05-01-2008, 10:56 PM
man can arrive at an ultimate truth. For example: If A + B = 20 and B= 7, therefore, by using the mind correctly, we can arrive at the truth that A=13.


False. There is no ultimate truth. Truth is too complex to brand it as "ultimate". The relation between how man quickly assumes that it is God The Father's power over him whenever he feels spiritual fervor isn't as simple as basic algebra, everyone knows algebra doesn't end at just that either. If it was simple, the world wouldn't have as many religions as it has towns.

Buddhists experience spiritual fervor and call it "Nirvana"

Muslims call it "Allah"

Shamans call it "Being in tune to Nature"

The point is that the answer is not always "13".

What if the supernatural being wasn't God?

acpatagnan
05-02-2008, 07:57 AM
False. There is no ultimate truth. Truth is too complex to brand it as "ultimate". The relation between how man quickly assumes that it is God The Father's power over him whenever he feels spiritual fervor isn't as simple as basic algebra, everyone knows algebra doesn't end at just that either. If it was simple, the world wouldn't have as many religions as it has towns.

Buddhists experience spiritual fervor and call it "Nirvana"

Muslims call it "Allah"

Shamans call it "Being in tune to Nature"

The point is that the answer is not always "13".

What if the supernatural being wasn't God?


What is truth? How do you arrived at the knowledge of truth?

The root word of truth is true. What is true? This question is same to what is reality? Anything real is true. There is only one reality. There is only existence-the real concrete world we live in. There is existence. There is consciousness. They are identifiable. The functions of consciousness is to be aware of, concious of the existence-the reality. The mind, our consciousness (the widest term) is man's faculty of knowing existence, reality, truth. Truth is the recognition of the facts of reality. If nothing exis of course there is nothing to be conscious of, aware of or nothing to know. to discovor or identify.
Supernatural things or being does not exist. They cannot be known, identify, discover, or aware of by our mind or consciusness. Anything that does not exist cannot be known. This is the epistemological prinicple of reason. Knowledge is compilation of data about reality. Science is a body of knowledge about reality, about the world we live in. Knowledge is for the benefits of each individual human life-for the enhancement, for the betterment of his own life and ulitimately for the enjoyment of life.

Faith is not the way to knowledge about reality. Faith is the method of faking reality. It is the method of escaping the reality. The logical result is stagnation, like what man had experience in history-the Dark ages or the medieval period.

Now man is being bombarded with ideas like back to that period-the period with full faith in supernaturalism., supertition.:)

acpatagnan
05-02-2008, 09:04 AM
It can be true that "Thinking is his tool of knowledge...."
if by the word "thinking" we mean "mind", otherwise, "thinking" cannot be considered a tool. It would be considered a process. Now, by the correct use of his mind, man can arrive at an ultimate truth. For example: If A + B = 20 and B= 7, therefore, by using the mind correctly, we can arrive at the truth that A=13.

However, if a supernatural being made His real presence experienced by a man, personally revealing Himself to him as a loving God and Father, and always personally accompanied him, then his mind would inevitably arrive at the conclusion that there indeed is God. Clearly, therefore, his faith in God is a product of his reason and not of fantasy. And that disproves your belief that the bible is asking us "to live like an animal or plants".

Feelings and emotions are responses to objects, actions. We all have feelings or emotions. It is our response to any objects or actions we observed. The root of feelings or emotions are our thinking. The content of our mind-the subconscious mind.

If the content of your thinking is that there is a supernatural being or God (though no proof or evidence), then the tendency of your feelings is fear, uncertainity (because you cannot find it in the real world) suffering and lack of self-esteem. You will feel that you have to give everything to God even the responsibility of thinking how to survive or live. This is what most Filipinos mean by "Bahala na ang Diyos!"

What the religion mean by experiencing the presence of God is just plain emotionalism. Just like actors or actresses thinking and emoting the feeling of having experience God. Religions like pentecostalism is just plain emotionalism same to all kinds of religion. Faith is exactly like that plain feelings of the result of imagining that there is God.

The question where is God? What is God? requires an exertion of effort. The expending of mental effort to know, to discover, to identify about reality. The first contact to real world is our senses then processed it to form concepts of knowledge. By this method we cannot find the existence of God. It is only through faith or feelings that you can do it. Faith is not the tool of knowledge. Faith is the tool of evading reality. Faith is the faking of reality. Or creating a reality of its own.:)

There is only one reality. We can all experiences that through our senses. By looking at the red rose, you experience the beauty of it. By your nose you will experience the sweet smell. By your touch, you experience the soft tissue and coolness. The experience of the real world by your senses-our first contact with reality. Of course it is possible to experience by means of imagination or fantasy. By imagining a beautifull, gorgous lady, you will experience pleasure of sex. That is same if you imagine that there is a presence of God, you feeling it with seriousness of your religion. It just plain feelings.:)

newmoonmaiden
05-02-2008, 12:48 PM
What is truth? How do you arrived at the knowledge of truth?

The root word of truth is true. What is true? This question is same to what is reality? Anything real is true. There is only one reality. There is only existence-the real concrete world we live in.

There is existence. There is consciousness. They are identifiable. The functions of consciousness is to be aware of, concious of the existence-the reality. The mind, our consciousness (the widest term) is man's faculty of knowing existence, reality, truth. Truth is the recognition of the facts of reality. If nothing exis of course there is nothing to be conscious of, aware of or nothing to know. to discovor or identify.
Supernatural things or being does not exist. They cannot be known, identify, discover, or aware of by our mind or consciusness. Anything that does not exist cannot be known. This is the epistemological prinicple of reason. Knowledge is compilation of data about reality. Science is a body of knowledge about reality, about the world we live in. Knowledge is for the benefits of each individual human life-for the enhancement, for the betterment of his own life and ulitimately for the enjoyment of life.

Faith is not the way to knowledge about reality. Faith is the method of faking reality. It is the method of escaping the reality. The logical result is stagnation, like what man had experience in history-the Dark ages or the medieval period.

Now man is being bombarded with ideas like back to that period-the period with full faith in supernaturalism., supertition.:)

You say reality is what is identifiable to man. Different men have different conceptions about their surroundings. A man born without sight cannot comprehend beauty and ugliness, therefore, it is a concept that is unreal to him. Does that mean that vision is a dimension that is unreal just because this man cannot comprehend it? What if all men were blind?

Man is limited by 5 senses. But is it for man to say if there are JUST 5 senses? Man is just one of the many organisms in the world and I believe it is vain for man to say that we are the only significant creatures in the world and only WE can think.

There is also such a thing as Cognitive Dissonance, where two facts invade a man through any of his 5 senses (or of a mixture of them). These facts may form a conclusion that does not agree with an idea that has already seated itself in a man's mind. The man closes himself to the new idea subconsciously, so that he doesn't learn anything from what he has experienced. He rejects the idea, but does that mean it isn't real?

The scientific process in itself is a never-ending search to find out what outside the box. What hasn't been thought of, what hasn't been detected by our limited senses. Through this kind of process do we now know the circumference of the earth, the existence of other planets, the fact that Pluto is not a planet... etc etc.

Human Knowledge evolves because of the belief that there is so much that we do not know. Human Knowledge grows because Scientists are not content with what their 5 senses tell them.

Let's go to this superstition and supernaturalism that you refer to. There are reasons why people cling to their beliefs. During the dark ages, tyrants drove people toward Christianity. It worked both ways because the people sought to become humble and content with their suffering in the belief that they'd eventually go to heaven. This kept people from revolting and the king on his throne. It is a more political situation rather than supernatural is it not?

Real people have died because of voodoo. Possibly because they knew someone had ill will against them and it was anxiety and heart failure more than magic that killed them. No matter what you tell these people, it won't be easy to soother them, unless you give them wards similar in nature to the kind of magic they are afraid of. This may be called "the placebo effect" by non-believers. People get healed not because of the effect of the medicine, but because of the belief that they will be healed. Such is the power of the mind and of faith.

Though not always good at times, religion will always be part of human society.

acpatagnan
05-05-2008, 09:56 PM
There is reality-existence,the concrete world we live in. There is consciousness. The function of consciousness, our faculty, is to know existence, to be aware of reality. Man's first contact with the reality is his senses and then processed by the mind to form concept of knowledge about reality. Reality is still there whether your senses is impaired. Like blindness, of course, reality is still out there. A blind man can still aware, or conscious of his sorroundings be the use of his other senses.

When we say reality or the widest term existence meaning everything in the universe, the world. it includes all living things and non-living things, known and still unknown. Man's firstcontact with the real world is his senses. Imagine if you were born without any senses-like deaf, mute, blind. It is very difficult to acquire knowledge about realty- or form concept. And very difficult to survive by his own self witthout the help of his relatives. How much more if you are totally without the five senses. Your are like a vegetable-or a living dead and will not last long.

Supernatural things do not exist. When you say supernatural it means beyond the natural. There is no such thing as beyond natural. There is only natural things. And they are knowable by human mind.

According to religion you will know the supernatural being or God by means of faith. What is faith? It is believing on those things that has no evidence or proof that can be found in the real world. Supernatural things cannot be contacted by our senses to be processed by our thinking. Because supernaturals do not exist. Thus faith is not by means of senses and then nonsense. Faith not the source of knowledge about reality. Then what exactly faith is? It is just plain feelings or emotion based on imagination or fantasy. :)

Yes, science is a body of knowledge. It is a compilation of knowledge about the reality. As long as man exist he will continue to expand his knoweldge for the betterment and enhancemnt of his life. As long as you live you have to expand your knowledge. You don't stop learning about reality. You don't stop discovering new ways of developing your means of living.

agta
05-08-2008, 08:42 PM
False. There is no ultimate truth. Truth is too complex to brand it as "ultimate". The relation between how man quickly assumes that it is God The Father's power over him whenever he feels spiritual fervor isn't as simple as basic algebra, everyone knows algebra doesn't end at just that either. If it was simple, the world wouldn't have as many religions as it has towns.

Buddhists experience spiritual fervor and call it "Nirvana"

Muslims call it "Allah"

Shamans call it "Being in tune to Nature"

The point is that the answer is not always "13".

What if the supernatural being wasn't God?

Is there any answer other than 13 to the question of 20 minus seven? I submit that there is none except 13. That is what I meant by ultimate truth.
The fact that there are various religions on earth is not a proof that no religion is true, or that all those religions are each true. Just as a black- colored object cannot be called white-colored at the same time and place.

agta
05-08-2008, 09:28 PM
Feelings and emotions are responses to objects, actions. We all have feelings or emotions. It is our response to any objects or actions we observed. The root of feelings or emotions are our thinking. The content of our mind-the subconscious mind.

So, our feelings or emotions have root, our thinking. And what do you think is the root of our thinking?


If the content of your thinking is that there is a supernatural being or God (though no proof or evidence), then the tendency of your feelings is fear, uncertainity (because you cannot find it in the real world) suffering and lack of self-esteem. You will feel that you have to give everything to God even the responsibility of thinking how to survive or live. This is what most Filipinos mean by "Bahala na ang Diyos!"
You are probably talking about yourself. of your personal frustrated experience. What you are talking again is about FANATICISM. That is the one which has a tendency of fear and uncertainty, of thoughtlessness and irresponsibility, a "Bahala na ang Dyos" attitude but without faith.


What the religion mean by experiencing the presence of God is just plain emotionalism. Just like actors or actresses thinking and emoting the feeling of having experience God. Religions like pentecostalism is just plain emotionalism same to all kinds of religion. Faith is exactly like that plain feelings of the result of imagining that there is God.
Certainly, that is how one who had never encountered God would look at it.
Just wait for your turn, if ever that would come to you. If not, sorry ka nalang.


The question where is God? What is God? requires an exertion of effort. The expending of mental effort to know, to discover, to identify about reality. The first contact to real world is our senses then processed it to form concepts of knowledge. By this method we cannot find the existence of God. It is only through faith or feelings that you can do it. Faith is not the tool of knowledge. Faith is the tool of evading reality. Faith is the faking of reality. Or creating a reality of its own.:)
How pitiful of you! As if you wish to place God in the laboratory, like a guinea pig! If you make a hole on the beach, do you think that that hole could accommodate all the waters from the sea? Similarly, your mental efforts could achieve only up to the limits of your mind.


There is only one reality. We can all experiences that through our senses. By looking at the red rose, you experience the beauty of it. By your nose you will experience the sweet smell. By your touch, you experience the soft tissue and coolness. The experience of the real world by your senses-our first contact with reality. Of course it is possible to experience by means of imagination or fantasy. By imagining a beautifull, gorgous lady, you will experience pleasure of sex. That is same if you imagine that there is a presence of God, you feeling it with seriousness of your religion. It just plain feelings.:)
Say words as you please. But you proved nothing here. You should be aware that, although we may all have five senses, we do not all have the same keenness of senses. That difference among men is already enough to let the proud know that, given one reality, men would not necessarily have the same experience to that reality.

Jeff
05-09-2008, 07:35 AM
In order to live we have to know how to live. In order to live you need food. In order to have food, you need to know how to produce food. To produce food you have to use your mind. Knowledge about food is the outcome of the reasoning mind.

.. i disagree on this idea because not all living organism know how to produce foods but they are only dependent on thier enviroment like for example the low class form of animals as what stated. and they live and exist because of the natural environment..naturalisa, they dont know how to produce food only plants and human can produce food from its resources..

.. now lets go back to the main topic about reason and faith ...now does an animal hava a faith so that they can produce food specifically the low level form.e.i. the pig?.. they have a reason themselves so that they can find or produce food?

I think all of us knows the food chain cycle...that's absolute. Animals live by instinct they kill, they eat, they fight for their territory and to their herds, they mate with no shame and malice, that's the rule of the jungle, survival to the fittest, they dont think who created them, nor they dont mind about their living condition, they dont pray, they dont have reasons, they dont know what's good and evil, they are not politicians, they are not doctors, atty, thinkers like most of us here, they dont even know how to cook, they dont know what is money, they dont have the feelings for others, they dont know what love is, hehehehe so many things they can't do compared to us. According to the bible we made fool out of ourselves because of sin. But animals, they dont even know that what they did is already a sin...It's better to be a man living with faith and reasons no need to make argument between faith VS. reasons. We don't have the power to control the minds of others, if they want to live with faith be it, if they want to live with reasons so be it. But one thing is, this world we live will not exist if there is no super natural being who created it. Bare in your mind by a question, who created this world, the animals. the oceans, the planets, trees, sky, rivers, vegetables, lands, mountains and US. No reasons could ever explain that!!!

acpatagnan
05-15-2008, 12:08 PM
This thread I started: FAITH VS. REASON, is a discussion about religious faith in contrast with reason. When I say religous faith, I refered to religion as a whole in general. And there are lots of religion today that can be classified such as Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and many others. The common denominator of all religion is the belief in supernatural being or things. In contrast to REASON, when I say reason I refer to human consciousness as a whole-the widest term. All living things are conscious: plants, animals and man-the highest consciousness. To human beings, his faculty of consciousness-his mind-its only function is to be conscious, to be aware of about reality. Reality refers to everythings that exist in our world, in our universe. And there is only one reality. And your are conscious about it, you are aware about it. This reality is knowable, discoverable, and can be explain by our reason with the method of logic-a system of non-contradiction.

Acording to religion, there is another reality aside from where we are now living. And they call it supernatural things with mystical Being that the mind cannot comprehend, understand, discover and find out. It is I call beyond the natural things. This supernaturals can be accepted by FAITH according to religion because there is no proof, or evidences that the REASONing mind can process to form a knowledge.

Therefore this is a conflict here. There is a versus here. If you are to both then you will commit a contradictions in your life. Hypocracy and evasion will be you actions.:)

If you profess to believe in God and don't follow all the way through then you are a hypocrites.
The word Islam means total submission. It means to deny and sacrifice yourself all the happiness in the present life for the total submission to the unknown, incomprehensible Allah. The same with Christianity. Jesus Christ is the icon of christianity.

acpatagnan
05-15-2008, 01:34 PM
To Agta,

What do you call a person who really, really follows God, his commandments and teachings. Do you call him a fanatics. Islamic terrorist are so obedient in the teachings of Koran-a total submission. If that is fanaticism so be it. Fanatics are a total followers.

What do yo call a person who profess to believe and follow God partially. Do you call him hypocrites. Partial obedience here means you follow those teachings that suit your feelings and situations.

You must accept (or evade) the fact that reason-man's mind- is the ONLY means to knowledge. Our mind is our ONLY means of knowing truth, reality AND THERE IS NO OTHER. Anything that exist are subject to our minds knowing, discovering. and finding out in order to live a better life. Truth, reality is out there. It is the functiion of our mind to know in accordance to the nature of its processing and method of logic. By this means, the IDEA OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD failed. You cannot find the reality, the truth about supernatural being or things by means of reason. Therefore we can conclude there is no such supernatural being.:)

acpatagnan
05-15-2008, 01:59 PM
The idea that the supernatural being or God created everything is just an idea. There is no proof that the universe was created out of nothing. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT your mind will always asked. The only answer is by means of faith according to whatever religion.. This is against the means which is reason.

Matter cannot be created nor can be destroyed. It just changes its form.

If you accept the idea that God created the universe by faith, then reason or the mind will asked who created God? Religion cannot answer that by means of reason, by clear explanations based on what we can find by our senses (man's first contact with the real world).

Therefore, it is clear that there is a VERSUS btween faith and reason. You cannot have both or you will be in contradictions. Just like fanatics and hypocrites. Total follower or partial follower.:)

agta
05-15-2008, 11:11 PM
To Agta,

What do you call a person who really, really follows God, his commandments and teachings. Do you call him a fanatics. Islamic terrorist are so obedient in the teachings of Koran-a total submission. If that is fanaticism so be it. Fanatics are a total followers.
Fanatics are not governed by reason, you know that. And that is how you look at everyone who believes and have faith in God, you consider them fanatics, for so you speak of them in the concept that they are fanatics, although you did not originally use that word here. That outlook of yours is defective.

You said that those who believe in God already surrendered their reason, or they no longer use their reason. One proof that that outlook is defective is the fact that we are reasoning out here in this forum despite the fact that I believe in God. To your question above I would say: Those who really, really follow God, his commandments and teachings, follow Him perfectly reasonably. They do it because they experienced a reality which you, unfortunately, did not experience as they did. Therefore, one who judges them as illogical individuals is committing a grave error in logic.


What do yo call a person who profess to believe and follow God partially. Do you call him hypocrites. Partial obedience here means you follow those teachings that suit your feelings and situations.
It depends. If a person follows God deliberately partially, then it could be said that he is simply mocking God. For following God does not depend on one's whims. He must, with all his mind and heart, strive to follow him perfectly.
But if he fails in one without deliberate intent to do so, then he knows to be sorrow for his failure, and from there rise up again, knowing that his God is a merciful God.


You must accept (or evade) the fact that reason-man's mind- is the ONLY means to knowledge. Our mind is our ONLY means of knowing truth, reality AND THERE IS NO OTHER. Anything that exist are subject to our minds knowing, discovering. and finding out in order to live a better life. Truth, reality is out there. It is the functiion of our mind to know in accordance to the nature of its processing and method of logic. By this means, the IDEA OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD failed. You cannot find the reality, the truth about supernatural being or things by means of reason. Therefore we can conclude there is no such supernatural being.:)
You seem to worship reason unreasonably. For all we know, reason is useless without the senses. Our senses detect the presence of a reality and transmits messages about this reality to our brain. Then the brain analyzes these messages and interpretes them. Therefore, the belief that REASON IS THE ONLY MEANS TO KNOWLEDGE is incorrect. For as you have seen, without the senses, reason would be useless.
The question now is: Do we all have the same keenness of senses? The obvious answer is NO. For example, a teacher gives a lecture to 50 students. The lecture he gives is a reality which each of the students is exposed to. Now, after the lecture, the teacher gives an examination to all of them. Do you think all the students would get similar grades? Certainly not. The difference of the keenness of their senses played a big part there. The one who got zero would not be justified to say that the teacher lectured nothing. The defect was not the absence of lecture, but in the individual himself for not perceiving it as keenly as the others did.

acpatagnan
05-16-2008, 11:08 PM
To Agta,

Yes, your right, fanatics are not governed or guided by reasons, especially religious fanatics. It is a fact that what happened in New York was done by Islamic terrorist. They just follow what is written in Koran-to die, to totally submitted to God, to kill in the name of Allah.

If you believe in supernatural being or God, your tendency is to please God or else you will be punished. Your tendency is to obey all what is commanded by God for you to do. You will have to forget, deny yourself and not to use your reasoning power. If you do not obey, your tendency is to feel guilty of not obeying and making Him disappointed. That is the religious doctrine. If God commanded you to kill your son, what you will exactly do is obey without any reason or question that comes in your mind about His other commandment "Thous shall not kill". A contradiction in command? Never mind just follow and obey. That is exaclty the religious teachings. Remember the Bible story about Abraham. How about the story of Adam and Eve.

When you use reason, by asking the existence of God, you will arrived at the conclusion that the idea of God do not exist in the real world. There is no proof or evidence to support the idea of God.

To those who profess that they believe in God but partially committed to all commands are just plain conformist. They sense that it is impossible to totally obey those religious teachings:to sacrifice, to deny reason, to deny the self. to die for the sake of God. The overall religious idea is anti-life and irrational. To deny yourself means to kill yourself. Why?

Yes, I worship the reasoning power of man. Reason, our mind is our nature. It is the only mean of our knowledge about the real world. We need knowledge before we can act. We need knowledge in order to live properly in our own individual life. If you deny your reason, your mind then you discard your means of knowing. you destroy you means of knowing how to live.

When I say reason is the only means of knowledge, it includes our senses-the base of knowledge. The data from our senses are process in our reasoning mind to form conceptual knowledge. If there is no data from our senses then there is nothing to process.

A normal human being is born with five senses. Imagine a human who is born with physical deficiency: deaf, mute and blind. It is very difficult for him to acquire knowlegde about real world and will not survive for long without the help of others. If that is what you mean by keenness of the senses. In your example about student, there no problem in there senses if all of them are normal. Understanding is of the mind, thinking. Yes, the student hears all the lectures, but do they understand what they are hearing. Their sense of hearing is perfect. What comes next is understanding-the processing of what they hear. They have the tool but they do not know how to use it. Or they just don't want to use their thinking, Thinking is difficult at first. But making a habit of thinking becomes less difficutl in the long run. That is why thinking is very important to teach in early age to make it a habit later on. It is important to encourage the child to reason out to make it a habit in his later adult life. Thinking, reasoning is volitional. Meaning you have to expend a mental effort to understand by choice, a willingness to exert an effort to understand (on the part of the student). First observations (by your senses) then process what you observed-identify the similarities and the differences-by the method of logic-the system of non-contradiction-checks its validity.

Compare it to faith as the means of knowledge especially what the religion called knowledge about God. Can you observed God through your senses then processed in your reasoning mind? Can you identify God in the real world? If you can't then the idea of God does not exist in reality. It is just an idea, an imagination. a mental creation. You accept the idea of God by faith and not by means of reason.

agta
05-17-2008, 05:16 AM
To Agta,

Compare it to faith as the means of knowledge especially what the religion called knowledge about God. Can you observed God through your senses then processed in your reasoning mind? Can you identify God in the real world? If you can't then the idea of God does not exist in reality. It is just an idea, an imagination. a mental creation. You accept the idea of God by faith and not by means of reason.
It seems to me that we both agree, that man has reason (mind) and that reason needs senses to acquire data that it shall process. In that sense, reason cannot stand alone by itself, it needs the senses.
And just as the mind needs training in reasoning, so too, the senses need training to develop a higher power of sensing. Just as the reasoning power of individuals are not the same, so too, their sensing power are not the same. There are individuals who could smell or hear what another could not. And others may see what someone could not.

However, the proposition that FAITH IS A MEANS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE is not accurate. Because faith itself is a product of knowledge. It is not a means of acquiring knowledge. It is itself KNOWLEDGE. A person has faith because he knows in his mind and in his heart that what he believes is true and trustworthy. Therefore, true faith does not contradict reason.

When God said to Abraham,"Take your only son Isaac whom you love and go into the district of Moria, and there offer him as a holocaust on the hill which I shall point out to you.". there was no commandment yet of "Thou shalt not kill." The ten commandments came to existence only in the time of Moses, given to him in Mount Sinai. Therefore, Abraham had no basis to question God, or to question within his mind God's instruction to him.
Logic dictates that a question arises only when there is a basis for it. Therefore, it cannot be said that Abraham no longer used his reason when he obeyed God.
As to your question: Can you identify God in the real world? My answer is YES. Firstly, my personal experiences with Him affirms to that. Experience involves the senses. Those experiences were relayed into my brain, were processed there, and so became part of my knowledge.
Secondly, your question may be likened to the question: Can you identity the number 20 in the real world?
Please tell me: How were you able to identify the number 20 in the real world? Have you seen or touched it?:rolleyes:

acpatagnan
05-18-2008, 12:13 PM
To Agta,

Consciousness is the widest concept. Consciousness is man's faculty of knowing, of awareness. (Lower form of aninmals have also consciousness-microorganism and plants).

Sense perception and volitional thinking are attribute of human consciousness. Sense perception is automatic. You can't do anything about it. Reality is out there and you perceived them all automatically. Your eyes sees everything out there. You can't do anything of what you see. What the mind has do is to know what is it that you are seeing, what you are hearing, touching, tasting. That is what science is doing-to discover more in detail what you are seeing, hearing, touching,smelling and tasting.

You do not train your senses for any higher senses you got only five senses. Our senses is our first contact with the reality. It's role is automatic. It is the thinking process that is not automatic. It is either to use it or not. That is what you call will power. It is either to focus your thinking (analyzing the similarities and differences) on what you receive from your senses. It is volitional meaning a mental effort to know further, to discover further in more detail.

Now you stated that faith is the product of knowledge. What product is that? Knowledge is the result of knowing, the end product of knowing that which exist-the real world. Science is a compilation of knowlege about the physical world we live in.

How do you arrived at the knowledge about God? If you know God, How do you know? How do you know that there is God? Can you use conscousness? Can you use your faculty of reason? Can you perceived God (by your senses) by observating the world out there-the external world.

In other words, how to do you arrived at the product about the knowledge of God? The only means according to religion is by faith. What is the explanation or process you call faith? Can you give a detailed explanation?

You stated that you see, hear, touch and even smell and taste God? Are you sure about that? How does God look like? What kind of voice he has? Does He smell obnoxious? Does he taste like a fried chicken? Oh, come on be realitic? Be honest with yourself in relation to what is real!!!

The principles of mathematics are true. We can apply it the real world. For example; 2 dalmacian plus 3 bullpits equals 5 dogs. Another: John, Peter, Mark plus Jesus equals four (4) human beings.

agta
05-18-2008, 11:18 PM
Sense perception and volitional thinking are attribute of human consciousness. Sense perception is automatic. You can't do anything about it. Reality is out there and you perceived them all automatically.
Yes, it is automatic but only when the senses have already fully developed to perceive that particular reality. Not all reality are automatically perceivable. At times one would need to use high powered microscope just to be able to perceive a thing by his sense of sight. At times one would need to use auditory device just to hear what ordinarily is not audible.

The blind whose sense of touch has been fully trained could read letters using his sense of touch, but those whose sense of touch were not trained to do so would not be able to read the letters by their sense of touch. I hope you got what I am saying here. Not only thinking needs training. Our senses also need training if we have to achieve a higher sensing power.



Now you stated that faith is the product of knowledge. What product is that? Knowledge is the result of knowing, the end product of knowing that which exist-the real world. Science is a compilation of knowlege about the physical world we live in.

Yes, knowledge is the result of knowing. But in order to know we need to use our senses in order that messages would be transmitted to our brain where they shall be processed into knowledge. The higher one's sense power, the higher would be the realities that one would perceive, and the higher too would be the quality and quantity of knowledge that would accumulate in his brain.


How do you arrived at the knowledge about God? If you know God, How do you know? How do you know that there is God? Can you use conscousness? Can you use your faculty of reason? Can you perceived God (by your senses) by observating the world out there-the external world.

In other words, how to do you arrived at the product about the knowledge of God? The only means according to religion is by faith. What is the explanation or process you call faith? Can you give a detailed explanation?

You stated that you see, hear, touch and even smell and taste God? Are you sure about that? How does God look like? What kind of voice he has? Does He smell obnoxious? Does he taste like a fried chicken? Oh, come on be realitic? Be honest with yourself in relation to what is real!!!


God is known through personal experience. I have repeated this truth here in this forum many many times. And yet it seems you still could not understand, or you simply refuse to accept the naked truth of what I am saying. Remember your own personal experiences. Do you think that your consciousness, your senses, were not involved in your experience? Your own words fit you: Be honest with yourself in relation to what is real.


The principles of mathematics are true. We can apply it the real world. For example; 2 dalmacian plus 3 bullpits equals 5 dogs. Another: John, Peter, Mark plus Jesus equals four (4) human beings.
How do you know that no. 2, or no. 3, or no. 5 exists? Yes, the animals dalmacian, bullpits, and the persons John, Peter, Mark, you are sure that they exist because you can perceive them by your senses. But how about no. 2 itself, no.3, or no.5? Have ever touched, seen, smell or tasted any of them? How does the number that Arabic represented as "5" actually really look like?

acpatagnan
05-20-2008, 08:22 PM
To Agta,

Human sensory organ developed naturally from birth along with his physical body. If there is no physical defect his body will developed normally. Our sensory organ is limited when we want to see minute object or far object. We do not developed our eyes to see microorganism; we developed and invented instrument like microscope or telescope to see far object. We use those instruments to know and discover more and expand our knowledge.

Physical defects is a problem in acquiring knowledge. If a person is born blind, he will have to utilize his other remaining sensory organ like you mentioned the sense of touch, and also his sense of hearing. By touching the letter and with the help of his sense of hearing other will tell him that it is letter A. He just utilizes his other senses to compensate his lack of sight. But imagine if you are born with only one sense-the sense of touch. It will be very difficult for you to acquire knowledge and will not live long.

You have to accept the fact that human being has only FIVE SENSES. There is no such thing as higher sense organ. ONLY FIVE sense organ. Our senses cannot be increase its power by itself without the help of instrument. It even decreases as we go old. (Lumalabo ang mata at pandinig mo kapag ikaw ay tumatanda). It is the thinking that we must developed. It is thinking that we must learn how to develeped and use. It is the thinking that we must know the mechanics or the processes, or how it works. DO YOU KNOW HOW THINKING WORKS? I can give you explanations how thinking works. (This is epistimology in philosophy)


You stated: "God is known through personal experience". What do you mean by personal experience? Human being experience through his feelings and emotions. We can experience pain, suffering, joy, happiness etc. They are the result of our response to any objects, entities, actions, attributes. etc.
Example: When you are reading a horror book, your response is fear, shocking fear. When you are reading a textbook in higher math, your response is a struggle to understand. Your experience is your response to something that exist like I said objects, entities, actions. You cannot experience or cannot respond to nothing. If nothing exist then nothing can be experience-nothing to respond to.

What you actually mean by knowing God through personal experience is you only know God by means of feeling. That is exactly the meaning of faith. Religion is plain emotionalism specifically pentecostalism. Feelings is not the means of knowing, of acquiring knowledg. IT IS THINKING, MIND. YOUR COGNITIVE FACULTY!

Mathematical principles are abstractions. They are in your mind. They are concept, idea. Numbers represent units (any entities) retained in your mind. They exist in your mind. Words (language) are audi-visual symbols of objects, entities, actions, attributes. And have definitions.

How about the word God? It is a floating abstraction. It does not represent entity that exist. It is floating because it has no basis, no connections to any. Religion cannot even defined it. How do we form the word God if there is no basis? It was invented by the mind by fantasy or imagination. Just like inventing the word SHREK, tikbalang, angel, satan, fairy etc.:)

agta
05-20-2008, 10:20 PM
To Agta,

Human sensory organ developed naturally from birth along with his physical body. If there is no physical defect his body will developed normally. Our sensory organ is limited when we want to see minute object or far object. We do not developed our eyes to see microorganism; we developed and invented instrument like microscope or telescope to see far object. We use those instruments to know and discover more and expand our knowledge.

Physical defects is a problem in acquiring knowledge. If a person is born blind, he will have to utilize his other remaining sensory organ like you mentioned the sense of touch, and also his sense of hearing. By touching the letter and with the help of his sense of hearing other will tell him that it is letter A. He just utilizes his other senses to compensate his lack of sight. But imagine if you are born with only one sense-the sense of touch. It will be very difficult for you to acquire knowledge and will not live long.
Whether or not it is compensation for his lack of sight, it is already out of the issue. The fact remains that the blind has developed his sense of touch to a degree higher than the others. It just goes to show that human sense power could be trained in order to bring it to a level higher than the ordinary. It is true with the sense of touch. Therefore, there is no reason for it to be not true with the sense of sight, sense of taste, and the other senses.


You have to accept the fact that human being has only FIVE SENSES. There is no such thing as higher sense organ. ONLY FIVE sense organ. Our senses cannot be increase its power by itself without the help of instrument. It even decreases as we go old. (Lumalabo ang mata at pandinig mo kapag ikaw ay tumatanda). It is the thinking that we must developed. It is thinking that we must learn how to develeped and use. It is the thinking that we must know the mechanics or the processes, or how it works. DO YOU KNOW HOW THINKING WORKS? I can give you explanations how thinking works. (This is epistimology in philosophy)
You have to tell to yourself what you are telling me here. If you have personal explanation of how thinking works, you should be cautious about your personal explanation or opinion. Bear in mind that everyone may have an opinion of his own. And there are three sides to an opinion: 1) Your opinion, 2) other's opinion, and 3) the true opinion.



You stated: "God is known through personal experience". What do you mean by personal experience? Human being experience through his feelings and emotions. We can experience pain, suffering, joy, happiness etc. They are the result of our response to any objects, entities, actions, attributes. etc.
Example: When you are reading a horror book, your response is fear, shocking fear. When you are reading a textbook in higher math, your response is a struggle to understand. Your experience is your response to something that exist like I said objects, entities, actions. You cannot experience or cannot respond to nothing. If nothing exist then nothing can be experience-nothing to respond to.

What you actually mean by knowing God through personal experience is you only know God by means of feeling. That is exactly the meaning of faith. Religion is plain emotionalism specifically pentecostalism. Feelings is not the means of knowing, of acquiring knowledg. IT IS THINKING, MIND. YOUR COGNITIVE FACULTY!

Mathematical principles are abstractions. They are in your mind. They are concept, idea. Numbers represent units (any entities) retained in your mind. They exist in your mind. Words (language) are audi-visual symbols of objects, entities, actions, attributes. And have definitions.

How about the word God? It is a floating abstraction. It does not represent entity that exist. It is floating because it has no basis, no connections to any. Religion cannot even defined it. How do we form the word God if there is no basis? It was invented by the mind by fantasy or imagination. Just like inventing the word SHREK, tikbalang, angel, satan, fairy etc.

What you actually mean by knowing God through personal experience is you only know God by means of feeling. That is exactly the meaning of faith. Religion is plain emotionalism specifically pentecostalism. Feelings is not the means of knowing, of acquiring knowledg. IT IS THINKING, MIND. YOUR COGNITIVE FACULTY. .:)
There are many words whose meanings you simply doctored to suit your whims. The word “experience” does not mean “respond”. Here is the true meaning of experience, you can click the link here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience)to verify this.

"Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience aligns it closely with the concept of experiment."

It basically means exposure or involvement to a thing or event. Between your invented meaning of the word “experience” and that of the dictionary, the latter is more authentic. Your doctored meaning of the word experience lead you to an erroneous meaning of the word “faith”. Consider then how many more erroneous concepts would result from your erroneous meanings of words!


Mathematical principles are abstractions. They are in your mind. They are concept, idea. Numbers represent units (any entities) retained in your mind. They exist in your mind. Words (language) are audi-visual symbols of objects, entities, actions, attributes. And have definitions. .:)
So you see! There are things that exist and yet they could not be touched, smelled, tasted or heard. Those who say they have not experienced God should strive to discover a meaning from that fact, although that fact cannot be a substitute to personal experience with God.


How about the word God? It is a floating abstraction. It does not represent entity that exist. It is floating because it has no basis, no connections to any. Religion cannot even defined it. How do we form the word God if there is no basis? It was invented by the mind by fantasy
or imagination. Just like inventing the word SHREK, tikbalang, angel, satan, fairy etc.:)
It is not surprising anymore that you say God is a floating abstraction. Knowing that you have this tendency of doctoring the meaning of words, it is simply natural that you would fall into various erroneous conclusions too.

acpatagnan
05-24-2008, 11:00 AM
To Agta,

Human senses as I said is our first contact with reality. It is the base of all our knowledge (conceptions) of everything. If a man is born blind he cannot form the concept of colors. Can he form the concept color of red, blue, green. Yes he can touch the word red in braile (tool used by blind) but he cannot experience the color red. You cannot even defined the word red. You just point it. You cannot tell him (the blind) by touch what is color red, blue etc. His other sense is inadequate.

It is not mere opinion we are discussing here, it is knowledge, a certainty of knowledge. Science is not a mere opinion. It is an exact, factual and true account about the real world. How you acquire that knowledge is not only an opinion it is more than an opinion. How does your mind works in acquiring knowledge. By perception alone, without the effort of the volitional thinking (conceptions) there will be no exact knowledge. By our senses, we percieve something exist, that thinking must discover further in more detail. By our senses, we are aware of something that exist, that you have to know more by the use of thinking. In this level, you form concepts. The concept is represented by words (language) an audio-visual symbols that is retained in our mind. The word represent an entity, an action of an entity, a relationships, an attributes etc. The word "man" is an audi-visual symbol representing an entity (human being) that is retained in the mind. The word 'walk" is an audi-visual symbols that is retained in the mind representing an action of an entity with a feet. How about the word representing color like the word "red'. It is retained in our mind that when we encounter it the next we see it we mean the color red by pointing to it. This is one simple process of thinking that you must learn by your own self. You mind is your own self. It is you alone who can use it.

Yes, it is true that there are many words man had invented and will be inventing. The question is what does it represent? There are words that do not represent something in reality or no basis in the real world. Like I said the word "God". Where do you get that word "God"? You get it from others (Bible, Koran and other sources). That is pretty sure. How about by your own means by means of human way-thinking, reason (consciousness)-by your mind (put aside what other sources says). Apply the only way of acquiring real knowledge-which is our faculty of reason and the base is our sense perception. OBSERVE the external world, what does your sense perception tell? Sense perception is the basis of knowledge.

Yes, that is correct of what you show as the definition of experience and it tells exaclty. There is the word OBSERVATIONS. What do you observed? Of course you observed many things: entities, actions of entities, attributes. etc. Now apply it to the word God. Apply observation. What do you find? NOTHING. Of course, you will observe people gathering in groups praying (crying and laughing in pentecostal gathering). It is just people (entities) acting (action) such as praying, crying, laughing. The question is can you observed God. Be honest with your sense perception and with your thinking? Can you observe God as an entity? Of course, there is nothing to observe. If nothing exist, there is nothing to observe, to perceive, to know further. This is how I arrived to the conclusion that the word God does not exist, does not represent something that exist.

Again, Agta,you still don't get it. What is abstraction? It is a process of thinking with the method of logic. It is in the mind. Right? Mathematics are abstraction. When you say 2+2=4 you are applying the method of logic. Adding 2 units to other 2 units logically will result to 4 units. That is true. Logic is a method of non-contradiction. It EXIST in your mind. By applying that math principle and logic in the real world, your knowledge is certain and true. Like I said: 2 dalmacian plus 2 german shephard equals 4 dogs. The word dalmacian represent a certain type of dog. The same word german shephard. Here is another one: one bullpit plus John plus Narra tree equals three (3) living things. What is the distinctive characteristic that you can find in bullpit, in John (man) and in Narra tree? This is the application of math and concept formation. The word "living things" is a higher level of knowledge (concept). The low level is the sense perception of the three entities. This is the process of thinking. This is the process that faith is trying to avoid, obscure, and deny. What then is faith? Faith in God? Faith is the way the religion arrived at the knowledge of God. It is none sense, cannot be observed then they will say cannot be comprehend by the mind.

Now, tell me how do you arrive at the word God without other sources like your parents, priest, pastor, guru, Bible, Koran, and other religious doctrine called faith?:) Your only means is OBSERVATION, then abstract from what you observed-the real, external world?:):D

agta
05-27-2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, it is true that there are many words man had invented and will be inventing. The question is what does it represent? There are words that do not represent something in reality or no basis in the real world. Like I said the word "God". Where do you get that word "God"? You get it from others (Bible, Koran and other sources). That is pretty sure. How about by your own means by means of human way-thinking, reason (consciousness)-by your mind (put aside what other sources says). Apply the only way of acquiring real knowledge-which is our faculty of reason and the base is our sense perception. OBSERVE the external world, what does your sense perception tell? Sense perception is the basis of knowledge.
The question could likewise be asked of you: Where did you get the word "two"? Did you not simply adapt it from others? I am 100% sure that you simply adapted it from others. You did not invent it yourself.
When you add "one" and "one", you arrive at a certain concept people call "two"? Why do they call it "two" and not other name? What is their basis for calling it "two"? Their basis is the writings or words of others, isn't it?
Since it is obvious that you have not recognized and personally experienced God, let me proceed in the method of men.
We perceive around us manifestations of life. A person can plant a twig, expose it to sunlight and water it. The twig starts to grow. Why? Is it because man gave it life? Certainly no. But Someone must have given it life! That Someone is what the believers call "God". Therefore, just as they call the sum of "one" and "one" as "two", the believers call the Ultimate Giver of life as "God". Your mind could accept the existence of the word "two", but it refuses to accept the existence of the word "God" even if the basis of the word is there in front of you. Think of it honestly!

justme
05-27-2008, 07:13 PM
i think acpatagnan does not believe in God...hehehe...oops sorry...

ask ko lang how did all the things exists if there is no God? who made it possible then? our reasoning, intellect or whatever that we can think of sinong ng bigay nun? makakaisip ka bang magdebate ngaun if you don't exists? and who made you by the way? you're own reasoning and intellect? sorry ha...nagiging pilosopo na ako...

agta
05-27-2008, 10:50 PM
i think acpatagnan does not believe in God...hehehe...oops sorry...

ask ko lang how did all the things exists if there is no God? who made it possible then? our reasoning, intellect or whatever that we can think of sinong ng bigay nun? makakaisip ka bang magdebate ngaun if you don't exists? and who made you by the way? you're own reasoning and intellect? sorry ha...nagiging pilosopo na ako...
Yes, justme, you're right. acpatagnan does not want to believe that there is God. His mind simply refuses to figure out the fact. Even if one would say that man came from monkeys (although that is not true) still the fact remains that monkeys have life. And the question would continue to echo: How did life come to be? From the combination of amino acids and other elements? Certainly no! For if life can come forth from the combination of inorganic (no-life) elements, then scientists must have done it in the laboratory long time ago. But the fact is: No one has ever yet brought forth a living thing from the combination of any non-living elements, more so, a living human. This is because only Life can give Life. Acpatagnan should disprove this fact.

acpatagnan
06-01-2008, 05:44 PM
To Justme,


i think acpatagnan does not believe in God...hehehe...oops sorry...

ask ko lang how did all the things exists if there is no God? who made it possible then? our reasoning, intellect or whatever that we can think of sinong ng bigay nun? makakaisip ka bang magdebate ngaun if you don't exists? and who made you by the way? you're own reasoning and intellect? sorry ha...nagiging pilosopo na ako...

Yes, I do not believe in God. There is no proof that there is God. You cannot even identify, observe that supernatural being. Others (priest,pastor, guru, Bible, Koran, etc.) will tell you that there is God, but cannot show it, cannot give any evidence.

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it just changes its form. Walang gumawa sa mga bagay na natural gaya ng universe, the earth, planets. Walang nakakaalam kung ano ang pinagsimulan or in english the origin of every thing. Existence exist. Try to understand that statement.

Kung ang tanong mo ay sino ang gumawa. Wala. Nothing can be created out of nothing. If God created the universe then who created God? How do you know that God created the universe? :D

I existed by means of natural process of sexual creation by my parents. Ganun ka rin. Mga natural na bagay ay nandyan na yan. Yan ay mananatiling nandyan bago kapa ipinanganak at hanggang ikaw ay pumanaw na. Ang mga natural na bagay ay walang hangganan. It is eternal. It changes only the forms. Nagbabago lang ang anyo. It cannot be created nor destroyed. It just undergo a process of evolving. changing.:D

acpatagnan
06-01-2008, 06:40 PM
To Agta,

You're exactly the product of our present educational system-the religious based education.

Word is an audio-visual symbol of things, of entity, of the entities' actions, entities attributes. entities relationship.etc that is retained in our mind. When I say entity, it means it exist, it is observable, it has identity. Logic is a method of non-contradiction. There are different languages. When you say two, it is english. When you say "dalawa", it is tagalog. The word TWO OR DALAWA has basis in the real world. It symbolizes object one plus object one logically means "two" objects. Yes, I did not invent the language, the word. It is transfered to me by means of education, from generation to generation. The question : IS IT TRUE? DOES IT REPRESENT UNITS? DOES IT BASE ON THE REAL WORLD WE LIVE IN? Apply it to the word "God". How did they invent or arrived at the word "God"?

No one knows how life originated. It is there. It exist. It is the given. None can create life out of nothing. Science is still in the process of discovering.

It is not that I do not want to believe. Want is a desire. The desire to know, to discover, to identify. There is nothing to believe that God exist. Because there is nothing to know, to discover, to identify. To see is to believe. If you want or desire something you have to identify it, define it, tehn go for it.

If you says, God is the source of life. how do you know? What is God? Can you identify God? Can you define God? These are abstractions. Philosophical abstractions. And the word God is a floating abstractions. No basis.


Your statement "only life can give life" is true. It is your parents that give you life. It is your parents (life) that give you life. It is the process of sexual reproduction. Of course, stone cannot give life. You know that.

No one knows how life originated. You can only know is how to live your own life and enjoy it. WE HAVE LIFE THEN WE LIVE IT. HOW? USE YOUR THINKING POWER!!!. But before you can use it you must learn how it works, its nature and its functions:D

Man is the ONLY being with rational consciousness that exist. Man is the only being that can create something out of the materials that exist for his own benefit. MAN IS THE ONLY HIGHEST GOOD THAT EXIST. WE ARE GOD!!! WE ARE THE MASTER OF OUR OWN FATE. That is the definition of God that religion hate to acknowledged and do not want to accept. They created a god in their mind that does not exist. Why create god in the mind only? We are the only god that exist!!! We have the power to actualize the god created in the mind by religionist.:D

spartacus
06-01-2008, 08:14 PM
It is not that I do not want to believe. Want is a desire. The desire to know, to discover, to identify. There is nothing to believe that God exist. Because there is nothing to know, to discover, to identify. To see is to believe. If you want or desire something you have to identify it, define it, tehn go for it.


to acpatagnan,
there are really things that man can not understand. whether god exist or not is a never ending debate between the believers and non-believers. however, the philophy of "to see is to believe" is not a sound idea. dili ko mosugot ana. i can not see air, yet i believe there is air. i can not see my mind but i strongly believe i do have mind.

so, it is logical for me to say that you dont have mind.:D:D

agta
06-02-2008, 01:41 AM
To Agta,

You're exactly the product of our present educational system-the religious based education.
And you, do you want to say that you are a product of the stone age education? Whatever my education is, it is none of your business. Just refute the facts that are presented here objectively and honestly!:)


There are different languages. When you say two, it is english. When you say "dalawa", it is tagalog. The word TWO OR DALAWA has basis in the real world. It symbolizes object one plus object one logically means "two" objects. Yes, I did not invent the language, the word. It is transfered to me by means of education, from generation to generation. The question : IS IT TRUE? DOES IT REPRESENT UNITS? DOES IT BASE ON THE REAL WORLD WE LIVE IN? Apply it to the word "God". How did they invent or arrived at the word "God"?
You see! "Two" is true. It exists even if we do not see it. We just add "one" and "one", even if we do not use an object, we know that one plus one equals two. We do not see it, but we believe in it. And our forefathers gave it a name although they did not see it.


No one knows how life originated. It is there. It exist. It is the given. None can create life out of nothing. Science is still in the process of discovering.
You got it but only partially! None can create life out of nothing. Science is still in the process of discovering. But you already closed your mind. You closed it to the possibility that in some future time, your science would discover God. I say, "your science" , because "my science" have already discovered Him. For you, no one knows how life originated.. But for the believers, they know that life originated from an entity. What you call the "given", the believers call that "God". Use your mind, acpatagnan, just as you used it to believe in the number people call "two". What your science have not yet discovered, the believers called Him GOD. If you do not want to use that word, okay invent your own word.


There is nothing to believe that God exist. Because there is nothing to know, to discover, to identify. To see is to believe. If you want or desire something you have to identify it, define it, tehn go for it.
LIFE. Life is there, acpatagnan. Life is there for your scientists to know, to discover, to identify. Just as we do not "see" the number "two", we also do not see "life". But we believe even if we do not see, because they are manifested in the real world.


If you says, God is the source of life. how do you know? What is God? Can you identify God? Can you define God? These are abstractions. Philosophical abstractions. And the word God is a floating abstractions. No basis.
The word God is not a floating abstraction because LIFE is real, it exists as manifested by living things around us. Logic dictates that nothing would come forth without a source, except the Ultimate Source Himself. Just obey your logic, what you call thinking power,then you will have nowhere to go but to an Ultimate Source. Then let your scientists or your philosophers discover the nature of that Ultimate Source. For to the true believers, the Ultimate Source revealed Himself to them. Taste Him, then and only then would you understand what we are trying to tell you.

acpatagnan
06-05-2008, 09:23 AM
to acpatagnan,
there are really things that man can not understand. whether god exist or not is a never ending debate between the believers and non-believers. however, the philophy of "to see is to believe" is not a sound idea. dili ko mosugot ana. i can not see air, yet i believe there is air. i can not see my mind but i strongly believe i do have mind.

so, it is logical for me to say that you dont have mind.:D:D

To Spartacus,

What you are saying is that man's mind is not the tool of his understanding, man's mind is not the tool of knowing. It means to you that your mind is not yours to use to know everything in this world. It means you deny it and don't try to know how it works and how it functions in our daily life.

"To see is to believe" meaning to understand, to know, to perceive by our senses then you will believe that it is true-real. You believe there is the air, because you are aware of it by the touch of you skin (sense of touch) though you do not see it by your own eyes. To see does not mean only your sense of sight. It also involves other senses. You have five senses. It is your first contact with the real world we live in-the reality. Now apply it to the word "God".

Man's mind is his attributes. Consciousness is man's faculty of knowing, of awareness. of what? Of anything that exist in this real world we live. You are aware of you own self, the workings of your own senses which is automatic. But thinking is not automatic. On this level, it is the process of forming concepts, it is the process of expending an effort or an exertion of mental effort to know more further in details. It is on this process that man can commit error so he needs a method to avoid contradictions which is logic. It is on this level that he needs to know more of how his mind works, the mechanics-the concept-formation. Unsa man ang gi tudlo sa religion tungkol sa pang-huna-huna (thinking)? It is written in the Genesis. Religion is man made ideas. And it is false because it is based not on the real world by means of senses perception and proper thinking with the method of logic.:D

The issue of whether God exist or not is a never ending debate to you if you do not accept that MAN'S MIND IS HIS ONLY TOOLS OF KNOWLEDGE and the basis of his knowledge is the data received from his senses.

Can you see, hear, touch, taste, smell the idea of God? Can you identify God? Can you define the word God? Of course, you cannot!!! That is true. Anything that does not exist, cannot be known by our sense perception that can be process by our thinking. To know is to know that what exist. If nothing exist then there is nothing to know, to perceive. Di ba? That is so simple. It is only religion that makes it complicated, that make its "malabo" or vague that resulted in the period of Dark Ages or the medieval ages. Religion caters to your emotions-they use fear to make you accept in faith that there is God when in fact there is nothing to believe.:D That is what have been doing by our parents, grandparents, and other religiuos teachers.

acpatagnan
06-05-2008, 10:26 AM
To Agta,

Education is also my business. And you are the product of religious education. There are many of your own kind that I must correct and educate. Education is a process of transferring of knowledge from generation to generation. Knowledge is a knowledge about the real world. Science is an organized body of knowledge about our world we live in. The foundation of knowledge is philosophy-objective philosophy. The world is out there. You have the faculty of consciousness (the mind). It is the mind that must be objective. What is the objective of the mind- IT IS TO KNOW!!! WHAT? The world out there. Abstractions is the function of the mind. Your mind abstract from that which exist -from real concrete world. You cannot know the principle of numbers without first being aware of the existence of an entity-object. Di ba? If there is no entity, no object, no things that exist then there is nothing to abstract, nothing to know about counting in the form of numbers that is retained in your mind. Nakuha mo?:D

When you say "two" it means two objects, entity (whatever it is you can find in the world). You abstract it from objects. Abstraction is man's mind attributes, function. The basis is the concrete real world. On the other hand, the word "God" is an abstraction also, but it is floating abstraction. There is no basis in the real concrete world. Just like the word "tikbalang", aswang, demons, satan, angels, shrek, casper. No basis in the real concrete world we live. Those words are floating abstractions-no connections in the real world. :D When you say to see it means not only your sense of sight. It involves all your senses-your sense perception.

My mind is so active. It is neither close nor open in accordance to your meaning. Our mind is either active or inactive. Your problem is that you still do not know how the mind workds, its mechanics. And that is the result of our educational system.

What is life? Can you define life? Life is a concept. You have it. I have it. Lower animals have it. But the stone, rocks or inanimate objects don't have it. How did you form the concept LIFE. Word is an audio-visual symbols representing a concept that is retained in the mind. Words have basis in the real world except proper names. This is the mechanics of thinking, abstraction that you must learn. And this is not taught in your religious school.

If the word "God" is not a floating abstraction then what is the basis-where is it link to. Then you stated that it is manifested in living things around us. So in other words, God is life. Animals are God. Man is God. Plants are God. That is the result of your logic. Since man is the highest living things in terms of consciousness, therefore your logic will tell you that MAN IS GOD. MAN IS THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD. THEREFORE WE ARE GOD!!!:D There is no other being that existed in this concrete world we live but we-THE MAN. There is no other being that we can observed, identity, study but MAN. That is exactly what I am pointing out for too long.

Mukhang malabong sabihin na "YOU TASTE GOD" Anong lasa ng diyos? You see it is becoming unobject, irrational, and error is fully clear here. Religions is full of error. It can be seen in your statement-as you are the product of the religious faith.:D

Maybe what you mean "taste God" is since man is living and has life then he is god. The man (the God) you are tasting maybe your boyfriend or your husband.:D;)

acpatagnan
06-05-2008, 11:17 AM
To Agta,

What do you mean by ultimate source? You mean originate. The origin of things. No one knows how life, the universe started. There are theories by some scientist but they are still looking for proof. And they remained theories.

The theory of evolution is an explanation of the process. The word evolve is the root of evolution. It means changes from some form to another. Logic is applied. And there is the theory of creation from religion. A theory that resemble to a magician. According to it there is nothing then by the magic of the wand, viola!!! there appears the universe, the sun, the planets. God is the magician. Who created the magician? Logic cannot be applied.

What is important is to live our own life according to the result of our consciuosness-thinking, mind. The material concrete world is there. What the mind can do is to observ, study the material world and transform them for the benefit of his own life-for the betterment of his own life and enjoy it. That is living. That is life. We have only one life to live.

What religious education is teaching is opposite. Religions teaches that your mind is not your tool of knowledge, your senses is not your first contact with reality. Faith is something that is no sense. It is believing in none sense. Not to see is to believe. Not to understand is to believe. Not to use the mind is to believe. They do not teach how the mind works, the mechanics of thinking, the objective and the function of the mind. They teach you this and that but they dont tell you how they arrived at that what they teach. This is the religious way.:D;)

FAITH IS AGAINST REASON. And will be forever.:D

agta
06-05-2008, 09:53 PM
To Agta,
Abstraction is man's mind attributes, function. The basis is the concrete real world. On the other hand, the word "God" is an abstraction also, but it is floating abstraction. There is no basis in the real concrete world. Just like the word "tikbalang", aswang, demons, satan, angels, shrek, casper. No basis in the real concrete world we live. Those words are floating abstractions-no connections in the real world. :D When you say to see it means not only your sense of sight. It involves all your senses-your sense perception.

My mind is so active. It is neither close nor open in accordance to your meaning. Our mind is either active or inactive. Your problem is that you still do not know how the mind workds, its mechanics. And that is the result of our educational system.

What is life? Can you define life? Life is a concept. You have it. I have it. Lower animals have it. But the stone, rocks or inanimate objects don't have it. How did you form the concept LIFE. Word is an audio-visual symbols representing a concept that is retained in the mind. Words have basis in the real world except proper names. This is the mechanics of thinking, abstraction that you must learn. And this is not taught in your religious school.

If the word "God" is not a floating abstraction then what is the basis-where is it link to. Then you stated that it is manifested in living things around us. So in other words, God is life. Animals are God. Man is God. Plants are God. That is the result of your logic. Since man is the highest living things in terms of consciousness, therefore your logic will tell you that MAN IS GOD. MAN IS THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD. THEREFORE WE ARE GOD!!!:D There is no other being that existed in this concrete world we live but we-THE MAN. There is no other being that we can observed, identity, study but MAN. That is exactly what I am pointing out for too long.

Mukhang malabong sabihin na "YOU TASTE GOD" Anong lasa ng diyos? You see it is becoming unobject, irrational, and error is fully clear here. Religions is full of error. It can be seen in your statement-as you are the product of the religious faith.:D

Maybe what you mean "taste God" is since man is living and has life then he is god. The man (the God) you are tasting maybe your boyfriend or your husband.:D;)
You can say I am a product of my religious faith. But that does not disprove the fact that life exists. Anyone can also say that you are a product of atheistic faith. But such statement is also useless here.:)

Consider you logic. When a person says that God is Life, does it really necessarily follow that animals are God? Does it really necessarily follow that man is God? It does not. But you say it does. Hence, you make me doubt of your knowledge about logic. You dream of educating me? Better educate yourself first.:p

You accept that science is still discovering. But then you closed your mind to the possibility that in some future time your science may discover the Ultimate Source of Life, the believers call God. Your acceptance is simply contradicted by your stubborn denial. In other words, you contradict yourself.
You say that religion is fall of error. What error? You have seen here that the error lies in your wrong knowledge of logic.;)

agta
06-05-2008, 10:08 PM
To Agta,

What do you mean by ultimate source? You mean originate. The origin of things. No one knows how life, the universe started. There are theories by some scientist but they are still looking for proof. And they remained theories.
I am not talking about the origin of things. Do not attempt to evade the issue by confusing it with THE ORIGIN OF THINGS. The latter is broad. Limit it to LIFE. How did life come to be? You say, "no one knows how life started." You closed your eyes and your ears to the fact that there are people who knows how life started. If you do not know, you have no right to include among your set those who know. Life started from the Ultimate Source of Life the believers call God. The science of correct thinking proves that there is that ULTIMATE SOURCE OF LIFE. You just have to improve your knowledge about that science. Little knowledge, they say, is dangerous. Think of it.:)

justme
06-06-2008, 07:11 AM
Yan na nga bang sinasabi ko pag di nasagot ung question ni Agta eh nagbabaling paksa nalang...Sana naman po eh kung ang pinagmamalaki ninyo REASONING ninyo eh makasalba po yan sa inyo. Sabagay di naman pala kayo naniniwala na may panginoon kaya dinadaan niyo nalang sa Reasoning. Sana naman matanong niyo sarili niyo kung sino nagbigay ng reasoning niyong yan hindi yung puro nalang kung anong kayang isipin ng tao ang pinagbabasehan ninyo na i deny ang katotohanan na may Diyos.

Atheist o Agnostic po ba kayo? matanong ko lang ha...

justme
06-06-2008, 08:03 AM
What religious education is teaching is opposite. Religions teaches that your mind is not your tool of knowledge, your senses is not your first contact with reality. Faith is something that is no sense. It is believing in none sense. Not to see is to believe. Not to understand is to believe. Not to use the mind is to believe. They do not teach how the mind works, the mechanics of thinking, the objective and the function of the mind. They teach you this and that but they dont tell you how they arrived at that what they teach. This is the religious way.:D;)

FAITH IS AGAINST REASON. And will be forever.:D

I disagree with this one. Samin eh pinahahalagahan ang kakayahan ng taong mag isip at mag usisa, malaman ang katotohanan sa mali. Mag obserba sa kapaligiran. At gamitin ang kanyang isipan upang kilalanin ang Dakilang Lumikha.

acpatagnan
06-06-2008, 08:50 PM
Yan na nga bang sinasabi ko pag di nasagot ung question ni Agta eh nagbabaling paksa nalang...Sana naman po eh kung ang pinagmamalaki ninyo REASONING ninyo eh makasalba po yan sa inyo. Sabagay di naman pala kayo naniniwala na may panginoon kaya dinadaan niyo nalang sa Reasoning. Sana naman matanong niyo sarili niyo kung sino nagbigay ng reasoning niyong yan hindi yung puro nalang kung anong kayang isipin ng tao ang pinagbabasehan ninyo na i deny ang katotohanan na may Diyos.

Atheist o Agnostic po ba kayo? matanong ko lang ha...

Marami na aking mga tanong na hindi nasasagot ng pari o pastor or kay ng mga philosopher in college. Si Agta pa kaya? Gaaya ng tanong na kung may Diyos ba o wala. Ang mga sabi-sabi ay mayroon daw ngunit hindi naman nila maipakit kung mayroon. Kung mayroon man ay malalaman at malalaman din sa pamamagitan ng ating sense perception. May mga bagay na mayroon ay iyong malalaman by means of our sense organ. Ang mga bagay na wala ay talagang wala. Gaya nga ng diyos. Ito ay isang salita lamang na walang sapat na katibayan or ebidensia. Simple lang ang tanong na iyong ipakita mo ang ebidensiya na may sinasabing Diyos. Sinasabi mayroon pero walang maipakita. Sinasabi nila ito ay hindi kayang unawain ng pag-iisip. Ibig sabihin lamang nito na hindi ang pag-iisip ang siyang gamit upang malaman ang lahat ng mga bagay na nandito sa munda.

You,justme, do you have any proof or evidence to show that God exist. How do you know that matter was created God? How do you arrived at the knowledge of God. Do you use reason? Do you have sense data that the mind to process to arrived at the concept God?:)

acpatagnan
06-06-2008, 09:43 PM
You can say I am a product of my religious faith. But that does not disprove the fact that life exists. Anyone can also say that you are a product of atheistic faith. But such statement is also useless here.:)

Consider you logic. When a person says that God is Life, does it really necessarily follow that animals are God? Does it really necessarily follow that man is God? It does not. But you say it does. Hence, you make me doubt of your knowledge about logic. You dream of educating me? Better educate yourself first.:p

You accept that science is still discovering. But then you closed your mind to the possibility that in some future time your science may discover the Ultimate Source of Life, the believers call God. Your acceptance is simply contradicted by your stubborn denial. In other words, you contradict yourself.
You say that religion is fall of error. What error? You have seen here that the error lies in your wrong knowledge of logic.;)

To Agta,

I do not have to disprove life. It is self-evident. There is life. I have my own life and you have your own life. The issue here is CAN YOU SHOW TO ME THAT GOD EXIST. You did not answer my question: What is God? How do you know that there is God? What is your means of knowing?

What I can straight forward tell you is that since sense perception is the based of thinking, of knowledge. you can not arrived at the concept of God. IF NOTHING EXIST THERE IS NOTHING TO KNOW, NOTHING TO PROVE OR DISPROVE, NOTHING TO DISCOVER, NOTHING TO IDENTIFY. Nothing is nothing. It is zero, void. That is why the word God is a floating abstraction. Wala. Zero. No connection to the real concrete world. If something exist then it exist. You are aware, conscious of its existence. If nothing then nothing to be aware of or conscious of. Hindi ba madali lang intindihin. yan. Ganun lang ka simple. Religion cannot accept that. To religion, God is unknowable by means of sense data and reasoning, IT IS ONLY ACCEPTED BY FAITH. FAITH IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH REASON. If you read the writings of St.Augustin and Tertullian, what the said was that they believe it because it is none sense and absurd.


Science is not only in the processing of discovering but also in the process of EXPANDING knowledge of the physical world we live in. It is not a matter of closed or open mind. It is a matter of activating yourmind. What you mean by closed mind is that I do not accept the religious allegation that there is a supernatural being or God. How can you accept an allegation or statement that is not true. An idea that cannot be found, identify, know by means of the human tool of knowledge is nothing sort of knowledge. An idea that is not supported by proof is not knowledge at all. Knowledge is knowledge
about reality-about the physical concrete world.

What is God? Can you define God? Can you identify God?
What is life? Can you define life? These are questions that you have not answered. These are abstraction. Life is a concept. God is a concept. But the difference is the life is identifiable, observable and can be studied in detail, while the concept God is a floating abstractions, no connection to the physical world, can't be identified, can't be observed.:)

If God is life.Man is life. Threfore Man is God. That is simple logic.

acpatagnan
06-06-2008, 10:22 PM
I disagree with this one. Samin eh pinahahalagahan ang kakayahan ng taong mag isip at mag usisa, malaman ang katotohanan sa mali. Mag obserba sa kapaligiran. At gamitin ang kanyang isipan upang kilalanin ang Dakilang Lumikha.

Sa iyo justme,

Kung gayon man, ano ang mga na-obserbahan mo sa iyong paligid? Ano ano ang inyong nakita, o narinig. May nakita ka bang, tikbalang, mananangal, aswang, anghel, satanas, demonyo, Diyos, Bathala or ano pang mga supernatural?

Ang magiging sagot o kahit sagot ng isang bata ay ito: mga tao, mga hayop, mga halaman, mga bagay na gawa ng tao (bahay, sasakyan, computer at iba), kalsada, dagat, lupa, bundok, ulap, araw, buwan, mga bituin, planeta mga natural na bagay. Kung gusto mo makita ang microorganism kailangan mo ng microscope. Kung gusto mong makita ang Mars, Jupiter, Saturn at iba pang planeta kailangan mo ng teleskopyo.

Pero may nakita ka bang sinasabi mong Dakilang Lumikha. Tao lang ang makikita mo na lumikha sa iyo sa pamamagitan ng pagtatalik ng iyong mga magulang. Tao lang ang makikita mo na siyang lumikha ng iyong bahay, o computer na nasa iyong harapan.:)

Bakit ang tao ay may pag-iisip? Bakit may limang sense organ: ang mata, tainga, dila, ilong, at balat? Ang mga ito ay siyang gamit ng tao para malaman ang lahat ng bagay na nandito sa mundo upang tayo ay mabuhay.:)
Ang mga bagay na mayroon ay iyong malalaman gamit ang pag-iisip. Ang wala ay wala talaga. Wala kang malalaman. Walang masasagap ang limang sense organ mo. Kaya walang kang mabubuong kalaaman sa iyong isip. Ang kaalaman ay kaalaman tungkol sa mga bagay na mayroon sa mundo. Ang wala sa mundo ay wala kang malalaman. Ang wala ay wala. Ang mayroon ay mayroon. Ganun lang ka simple.

Kung walang masagap ang iyong mga gamit, nagpapatunay lang na wala. Wala kang mabubuong konsepto ng kaalaman. Ang salita ay simbolo ng isang bagay ng na nananitili sa isip. Ang basehan ng salita ay ang mga bagay na mayroon. Kung ikaw ay bumuo ng isang salita na walang basehan, ito ay masasabing kathang isip lamang. Ang salitang "tao" ay may basehan. Ayun makikita mo si Agta, si Jalmz, si acpatagnan, Sila ang mga bagay na sinisimbolo ng salitang "TAO". :)

Wowie
06-07-2008, 02:09 AM
Im sorry to interrupt this great discussion, as a mod I should point out that this debate is going out of topic.

This thread is about faith versus reason as the title says, and not proving if God exists.

Please stay ontopic to avoid confusion. :)

justme
06-07-2008, 08:37 AM
Cge po acpatagnan bigyan mo lang ako ng oras at sasagutin ko yang mga katanungan mo.

justme
06-07-2008, 10:31 PM
You,justme, do you have any proof or evidence to show that God exist. How do you know that matter was created God? How do you arrived at the knowledge of God. Do you use reason? Do you have sense data that the mind to process to arrived at the concept God?:)

To Kuya Wowie: Pacencya na I was being raised with the questions above..And I want to answer it.. okay lang po ba? babalik naman kami sa topic.. kailangan lang talagang unahin ang pagsagot nito...:)

To acpatagnan:

Assume that you set up a big city by bringing millions of sets of Lego together. Let there be in this city skyscrapers, twisting roads, railway stations, airports, shopping malls, subways and also rivers, lakes, forests and a beach. Let there also be living in it thousands of people wandering in its streets, sitting in their homes and working in their offices. Take every detail into account. Even the traffic lights, box offices, and the signboards at the bus stations.

If someone came up to you and said that all the pieces of Lego of this city, which you had founded by planning it right down to the smallest detail, and each piece of which you had picked up and placed with great care and precision, had been brought together by sheer accident to produce this city, what would you think of the mental state of that person?

Now, go back to the city you have built and consider that the whole city would be levelled to the ground if you had forgotten to put into place even a single Lego, or changed its place. Can you imagine what great balance and order you have had to establish?

Life in the world where we live is also made possible by the accumulation of such a great number of details incomprehensible to the human mind. The absence of even one of these details might mean the end of life on the earth.

Everything, every detail from the atom, the smallest unit of matter, to the galaxies harbouring billions of stars, from the moon, an inseparable adjunct of the world, to the solar system - all work in perfect harmony. This well-organised system runs flawlessly, just like a watch. People are so confident that this billions-of-years-old system will go on functioning without leaving out even the smallest detail that they can freely make plans about something they think will be realised in the next 10 years. No one is worried about whether the sun will rise the next day. A great majority of people do not think about "whether the world may ever chance to break free from the gravitation of the sun and start to move towards the unknown in the pitch-dark space"; or ask "What keeps this from happening?"

In the same manner, when people are about to sleep, they are very confident that their hearts or respiratory systems will not relax as their brains do. However, even a few seconds' halt in any one of these two vital systems may well cause results that will cost one's life.

When the "glasses of familiarity" which surround the whole of life and cause every event to be assessed as if 'it is taking place in its natural course' are taken off, one is free to see that everything is made up of such closely interdependent, meticulously planned systems that it is as if we were hanging on to life by the skin of our teeth. You notice an excellent order prevailing in every spot you turn your eyes on. Certainly, there is a great power that creates such an order and harmony. The possessor of this great power is God, Who created everything out of nothing. In a verse of the Qur'an, it is said:

He Who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no incongruity will you see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn your vision (upon it) once more: can you see any flaw? Yea, turn your vision (upon it) again and yet again: (and every time) your vision will fall back upon you, dazzled and truly defeated. (The Qur'an, 67:3-4)

When we look at the phenomena in the heavens, on the earth and in all that lies between them, we see that they all prove the existence of their Creator in their own right. We are going to dwell on the natural phenomena and living beings that every one sees, yet never thinks about, and how they have come into being and continue their existence. If we were to write down all the signs of God in the universe, they would fill many thousands of volumes of encyclopaedias. Therefore, we will only deal briefly with some subjects that deserve to be pondered upon at length.

However, even these brief mentions will help the conscientious "men of understanding" to notice the most important fact of their lives or at least will help them remember it once again.

For God Exists.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth and He is known through reason.

Evidence:
Water Lilies

Little flowers on the earth are mostly considered commonplace by people, notwithstanding their overall perfection. What prevents people from grasping the creation miracles in these flowers is the familiarity brought about by seeing them everywhere and every day. Therefore, flowers that grow in a totally different place, under totally different conditions and in totally different sizes will be assessed without the "glasses of familiarity" and thus help us grasp the existence of God.

Amazon water lilies that grow in the sticky mud covering the bottom of the Amazon River are interesting enough to remove the 'glasses of familiarity' from people, because they continue their lives not in the way people are accustomed to and witness everyday, but with a very different struggle.

Water lilies can only make use of daylight once they have made their way from the depths of swamps to the water surface by extending upwards as high as 2 metres. However, the roots of these flower also need oxygen. In the left picture are the stems that stretch out from the roots of the plant to the water surface carry the oxygen it obtains to the roots.

These plants start to grow in the mud at the bottom of the Amazon River, and then reach out towards the river surface. Their goal is to reach the sunlight which is vital to their existence. When they finally reach the water's surface, they stop growing and develop thorny, round buds. The buds develop into gigantic leaves with a reach of 2 metres, in as short a time as a couple of hours. "Knowing" that the more they cover the river surface with abundant leaves, the more will they be able to make use of sunlight, these water lilies make ample use of daylight to perform photosynthesis. They "know" that otherwise they will not be able to survive at the bottom of the river due to the scarcity of light. It is certainly quite inspiring for a plant to employ such an "intelligent" tactic.

However, sunlight alone does not suffice for the Amazon water lilies. They also need oxygen equally, yet it is obvious that this oxygen does not exist in the muddy ground in which their roots are located. This is why water lilies stretch out stems developing from their roots upwards towards the water surface where their leaves float. Sometimes these stems grow as tall as 11 metres; they are tied to the leaves and function as oxygen-carriers between the leaves and the root.23

How can a bud in its initial stages of life in the depths of a river know that it needs oxygen and sunlight to survive, that it would not be able to live in their absence, and that everything it needs is present on the water surface? A being recently introduced to life is aware neither of the fact that this water has an ending point, nor of the existence of the sun or oxygen.

Therefore, if the whole event is assessed from the standpoint of evolutionists, these plants should long before have been defeated by environmental conditions and become extinct. Nevertheless, water lilies are still present today in all their perfection.

The unbelievable life struggle of water lilies continues well after they reach light and oxygen on the water surface, where they curl the brims of their huge leaves upward to prevent them from sinking.

They can continue their lives with all these precautions, yet they also know that these are not enough for their reproduction. They need a living being that will carry their pollen to another water lily, and this living being is a beetle (coleopteran) which has been created with a special weakness for white colour. They prefer these white water lilies out of all the attractive flowers of the Amazon River. When Amazon water lilies are visited by creatures which will continue their species, they close all their leaves, imprison them, and offer them ample pollen. They let them free after keeping them for one night, and then change their colour so that they do not bring the same pollen back to them. The once pure white, glorious water lilies will now go on adorning the Amazon river in pink.

Could such flawless and finely calculated plans be the work of a bud unaware of everything? Of course not. They are the work of the wisdom of God, Who created all things. All the details summarised here show that plants, like all other living beings in the universe, came into existence already furnished with the most convenient systems, and this was thanks to their Creator.

Now:
Can the wind form an airplane by coincidence?

The famous physicist Sir Fred Hoyle makes a very striking observation about the origin of life. In his book The Intelligent Universe he writes:

The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way (by coincidence) is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.24

This comparison of Hoyle's is quite inspiring. The examples that we have discussed above also reveal that both the existence of life and the perfection of its present systems force us to look for the great power making these come into being. Just as a hurricane cannot produce an airplane as a result of coincidences, neither is it possible for the universe to have come into being as a result of unanticipated happenings and moreover to harbour extremely complex structures therein. In truth, the universe is furnished with myriad systems of an infinitely greater complexity than those of an airplane

Everything we have confronts us with the evidence of the flawless planning not only in our immediate surroundings but also in the depths of space. One who assesses these signs which are so evident as to be undeniable by both reason and conscience can come to only one conclusion: there is no room for coincidence in the universe; the universe was Created with all the minutiae contained in it.

And God, the Creator of this flawless system, is He Who has infinite might and knowledge.:)

justme
06-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Unquestionably, nothing can be more important than the creation of man and his knowing his Creator. It is as much within the scope of the conscience and reason of a small child as it is within that of an adult to grasp that he was created. The prophet Abraham's words in the Qur'an are a very good example of what we mean.

The Prophet Abraham once lived in a community that did not believe in God and worshipped totem poles instead. Although he had never received any teaching about the existence of God, he had grasped with his reason and conscience that he had been created-moreover, that he had been created by God, Who created the heavens and the earth. In the Qur'an it is related like this:

When the night covered him over, he saw a star. He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, he said: "I love not those that set." When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, he said: "Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among those who go astray." When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to God. For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I ascribe partners to God." (The Qur'an, 6:76-79)

As we see in the example of the Prophet Abraham, everyone who has reason and conscience and, more importantly, who "does not reject in iniquity and arrogance" is capable of understanding that the universe was created and, moreover, that it was created with a great order and plan.

No doubt the state of those who reject the existence of God, despite all the manifest signs displayed for all to see, is quite astonishing to those who have reason and conscience. In the Qur'an, the following is stated about those who do not believe in God's power of creation:

If you marvel (at their want of faith), strange is their saying: "When we are (actually) dust, shall we indeed then be in a creation renewed?" They are those who deny their Lord! They are those round whose necks will be yokes (of servitude): they will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (for aye)! (The Qur'an, 13: 5)

Perhaps you have so far failed to give due consideration to the importance of this subject or perhaps you may never have even thought about it before. However, be assured that to recognise God, Who has created you, is more important and urgent than anything else you can do.

Think about what He has granted you: you live in a world subtly-planned down to its slightest detail and created specially for you. You had no part in this process. You opened your eyes one day and found yourself amidst countless blessings. You can see, you can hear, you can feel…

And it is so because He willed such a creation. In a verse it is said:

It is He Who brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers when you knew nothing; and He gave you hearing and sight and intelligence and affections: that you may give thanks (to God). (The Qur'an, 16:78):)

acpatagnan
06-08-2008, 12:45 PM
To Justme,

Ang dami mong sinabi. He,hehehe! Joke only!

One point I can say to you straight forward, there are man made objects (like you mention the Lego, the computer in front of you). Right? And there are natural objects (like the earth, the sun, stars, planets, universe, here on earth, plants, animals, man, mountains, rivers, sky etc). Right? In philosophy, the term used is metaphysically given. They existed already before you and I were born. Same with man made objects, those objects that were invented prior to your birth. The difference between the man-made objects and natural objects is that the man-made objects are the product of his thinking, his reasoning power. Man uses his thinking power to transform the natural objects to make his life efficient, better and for his enjoyment. Right?

Now the question, who created that natural objects my answer is NO ONE. In the language of physics, matter is indestructible, it cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. It just changes its form. An example, is the splitting of atom. The atom can only be split. It cannot be destroy. When it burst (like the nuclear bomb) is just changes from one form to another. The atom is still there. It does not ceased ot exist. It is still existing.

No one know the ORIGIN OF LIFE. No one know how life originated. No one knows how life started here on earth. Science is on going process of discovering. Right? There are theories like the theory of evolution, the big bang theory. But that remains still as theory. And what is plausible is that all uses the method of logic specially the theory of evolutions (there are lots of evidences )

Now, religions stated that God created the universe. How does religion know? How does religions arrived at that knowledge if it is realy a knowledge about our phsical concret world? They answer is by means of FAITH. Then what is faith? Can you define faith? What is God? Can you define God?

NO EXACT, ABSOLUTE ANSWER. I have already talk to several priest, pastor, philosopher in college, well they will just give so much wording, verbiage without meaning, twisted can not satisfy REASON.

Huwag na nating pahirapan pa ang ating mga sarili. Ang nagpapagulo ng ating pag-iisip ay ang RELIHIYON, kahit anong reliheyon. Kaya itakwil na natin ang mga sinasabi ng relihiyon. Puro kasinungalingan. Sabi nila may Diyos pero hindi namn nila maipakita o maipailwanag. Walang maibigay na pruweba, or ebidensya.:):D:D

acpatagnan
06-08-2008, 12:49 PM
faith Is Incompatible With Reason!!!

justme
06-08-2008, 04:46 PM
faith Is Incompatible With Reason!!!

Well, on our belief... Through REASON we can identify our God (existence of God) and once we accept that fact we develop this FAITH... :)

I'll comment again.. medyo busy sa kabilang forum eh..i'll be back kaibigan.. Atheist ka di ba?

O by the way you mention above that "marami kanang tinanong na mga pari at pastor" ngunit they can't give you a satisfying answer right? pwde ba kitang imbitahan sa isang website na pwdeng makasagot sa mga katanungan mo? If you say "yes"..Ill give it to you...:)

acpatagnan
06-11-2008, 04:43 AM
Well, on our belief... Through REASON we can identify our God (existence of God) and once we accept that fact we develop this FAITH... :)

I'll comment again.. medyo busy sa kabilang forum eh..i'll be back kaibigan.. Atheist ka di ba?

O by the way you mention above that "marami kanang tinanong na mga pari at pastor" ngunit they can't give you a satisfying answer right? pwde ba kitang imbitahan sa isang website na pwdeng makasagot sa mga katanungan mo? If you say "yes"..Ill give it to you...:)

To justme,

You do not, exactly and strictly speaking, know what is reason. Do you know how your consciousness works. reason works? Theologian uses logic as a form of presenting their ideas without any basis in the real world. As if using math not for practical use but for their own mental calistenics or exercises. Thomas Aquinas used reason to proved God, but there were may flaws and error and was refuted many times.

Tama ka, may kausap akong pari fresh and old graduate from seminary. The only thing I observed is that they are embedded in their mind the philosophy of Emmanuel Kant, and the origin is Plato.

A question can be answered briefly, concisely and direct to the point. Simply lang ang tanong: Does God exist? How do you know? Can you prove it and show to me?

Priest, pastor, theolegian and others , to briefly, concisely and direct to the point, said : "Yes, God exist. By means of faith. We can not prove it, we just believe. God cannot be proven by our senses and processing it by reason. For God is uncomprehensible, cannot be known by reason but only by faith." That is very clear. FAITH IS NOT REASON.

Next question is What is Faith? Ang mga sagot nila marami! Malabong sundan ng pag-iisip. Ganon ang stilo ng kanilang pangangaral. Pinapalabo ng pinapalabo hanggang sabihin nalang nila "maniwala ka at matakot na lang sa Diyos" You see they uses FEAR-the emotion- to accept that there is God.

Like I said previously, emotions, feelings are not our means of knowing. of knowledge. Your mind, my mind cannot function properly under any threat like "pananakot". Mind should be free to function properly. Free from any emotions, feelings.

This is the reason we can say that faith is just nothing but a sort of feeling, emotion.

If the content of your thinking is that there is God then you will feel fear if you do not obey whatever God wants, desires for you to do. If God wants you to kill your son, then you have to obey exactly as told. Your feeling is that your life is dependent on whatever God will say and you have to be obedient. That is what religion exactly taught you for centuries. Christian as well as the Isam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

If the content of your thinking is that there is no such as God, then what you will then feel is you are free to know, to discover your surrounding in order to live. Your life is dependent upon your own self. But you, by nature, have the tool--the mind to used in order to live. You have to discover how to think properly,:) That is what science is . Knowledge of our physical world to the benefits of our life. :D

agta
06-16-2008, 01:32 AM
What is God? Can you define God? Can you identify God?
What is life? Can you define life? These are questions that you have not answered. These are abstraction. Life is a concept. God is a concept. But the difference is the life is identifiable, observable and can be studied in detail, while the concept God is a floating abstractions, no connection to the physical world, can't be identified, can't be observed.:)

If God is life.Man is life. Threfore Man is God. That is simple logic.

False minor premise! Man has life, yes. But it is not the same as "Man is life". Consider your logic once again.

Life can be studied in detail? If what you said here is true, then why is it that in your previous posts you said that no one knows how life came to be? You keep on contradicting yourself. Or do you know now how life came to be?

Let me see. Can you define yourself?

What I am saying here, which you pretend not to understand, is that life, as a fact in the real world, would not come forth without a source, a source which, by dictate of logic, must by itself be self-sustaining, that is, purely not dependent upon another for its existence. That self-sustaining source is what I call Ultimate Source of Life.

Observe the physical world. Have you ever seen anything which just come forth without a source? None. Everything has a source. This is a law of nature. Life is not exempted from that law. You say that no one knows how life came to be! Maybe yes, we do not know how life came to be. But because of the law just mentioned, surely we know that life has an Ultimate Source.

acpatagnan
06-17-2008, 08:39 AM
False minor premise! Man has life, yes. But it is not the same as "Man is life". Consider your logic once again.

Life can be studied in detail? If what you said here is true, then why is it that in your previous posts you said that no one knows how life came to be? You keep on contradicting yourself. Or do you know now how life came to be?

Let me see. Can you define yourself?

What I am saying here, which you pretend not to understand, is that life, as a fact in the real world, would not come forth without a source, a source which, by dictate of logic, must by itself be self-sustaining, that is, purely not dependent upon another for its existence. That self-sustaining source is what I call Ultimate Source of Life.

Observe the physical world. Have you ever seen anything which just come forth without a source? None. Everything has a source. This is a law of nature. Life is not exempted from that law. You say that no one knows how life came to be! Maybe yes, we do not know how life came to be. But because of the law just mentioned, surely we know that life has an Ultimate Source.

To Agta:

Of course man has life. There is no other being that we can find that has life: plants, animals and man. Read the article in Objective Ethics I posted in another thread. You can find there the detailed answer. Life is a process of self-sustaining and sefl-generated action. IT IS A PROCESS. The exact definition of life. And we can say that man is life because man is in a continous process of existing. Put out the life then you put man out of existence. When we say process means action of absorbing nutrient from food that serve as fuel. Stop the process the result is death (non-life).

I already stated that no one knows how life originated or started. There are some theory that meteors that falls on earth carried with them the ingredient with the combination of good conditions here on earth, life was started. It happened million years. Or it happened in a very long process. It is called process of evolution--evolving from one form to another. There are evidences that were found by scientist. This is how man acquired knowledge.

But the religious idea of a being called God with the power of a wand (like a magician) there instantly appear the earth, the universe, the man etc. There is no proof of it. The basis is the bible. Who wrote the bible like a journalist reporting an event. It is illogical, unreasonable. If God created life and non-life object then who created God? Did God created himself? Or another God created him? How do you know? The answer is by FAITH.

Nothing can be created out of nothing. Matter is indestructible. It cannot be created nor destroyed. It just changes its form.

Kaya nga masasabi nating KATHANG ISIP lamang ang salitang Diyos, Bathala. Abstraction is on the mind. The word God is a floating abstraction, no connection to the real, concrete, physical world.:D

Faith is not the means of knowledge about the physical world we live in. FAith is believing on something beyond this world. Faith is out of this world said the priest I met and talked to.:D

Only REASON can be and should man's means of knowledge. The proof are many and cannot be denied.:D

agta
06-17-2008, 08:39 PM
To Agta:

Of course man has life. There is no other being that we can find that has life: plants, animals and man. Read the article in Objective Ethics I posted in another thread. You can find there the detailed answer. Life is a process of self-sustaining and sefl-generated action. IT IS A PROCESS. The exact definition of life. And we can say that man is life because man is in a continous process of existing. Put out the life then you put man out of existence. When we say process means action of absorbing nutrient from food that serve as fuel. Stop the process the result is death (non-life). Where is your proof that life is "a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action."? You are simply imagining that belief. It has no objective proof in the real world.:o


I already stated that no one knows how life originated or started. There are some theory that meteors that falls on earth carried with them the ingredient with the combination of good conditions here on earth, life was started. It happened million years. Or it happened in a very long process. It is called process of evolution--evolving from one form to another. There are evidences that were found by scientist. This is how man acquired knowledge.
Oh, theory! Theory that fails in many respects. They are just as true as your view of tikbalangs.:D


But the religious idea of a being called God with the power of a wand (like a magician) there instantly appear the earth, the universe, the man etc. There is no proof of it.
Correction! The power of a wand is not a religious idea. It is simply your own idea. It is an idea of the likes of the author of cinderila, of fiction writers.:eek:


The basis is the bible. Who wrote the bible like a journalist reporting an event. It is illogical, unreasonable. If God created life and non-life object then who created God? Did God created himself? Or another God created him? How do you know? The answer is by FAITH.
It is obvious, you don't understand what is meant by SELF-SUSTAINING BEING. What is self-sustaining naturally does not need another or anything for its existence. But to you, a self-sustaining being still needs someone to create him. tsik tsik tsik.:rolleyes:



Nothing can be created out of nothing. Matter is indestructible. It cannot be created nor destroyed. It just changes its form.
Man, plants, animals are matter. They manifest the presence of life. But is life matter? Does life change its form? Have you seen life itself?:p


Kaya nga masasabi nating KATHANG ISIP lamang ang salitang Diyos, Bathala. Abstraction is on the mind. The word God is a floating abstraction, no connection to the real, concrete, physical world.:D
If the existence of life is not observable among beings in the real, concrete, physical world, then I would agree that life is only an abstraction on the mind. And then I would agree that God is only a floating abstraction. Unfortunately for you, life is unquestionably manifested in this world by living things. Therefore, life is not a floating abstraction. And therefore, God is not a floating abstraction.:)


Faith is not the means of knowledge about the physical world we live in. FAith is believing on something beyond this world. Faith is out of this world said the priest I met and talked to.:D
That's right! Faith is not a means of knowledge about the physical world we live in. But no! It is not believing on something beyond this world. Your priest must have something in mind far and different from what you wish him saying. In other words, you must have taken him out of context. Show here the link to his words if indeed your priest exists. If you cannot show the link here, it would be a demonstration of intellectual dishonesty on your part.:cool:
Better yet, name your priest so that your allegation could be verified with him.:p

acpatagnan
06-20-2008, 01:13 PM
To Agta,

It seems that you do not understand what is life. There's lots of proof of it. A single cell of amoeba to the complex human being are proof of life. Just observed them. The cell of amoeba have to absorb the nutruients to fuel its life.:D So the same with human, you have to absorb the fuel to sustain your life. The continuous absorbing of the fuel to remain alive is constant process for living organisms. That is objectively what life is. Put off that process, living organism will eventually die. That is simple to understand. Why can't you? Life is a continous action of self-sustaining. How? By absorbing the food as fuel to life. Huwag kang kumain di ba mamamatay ka? Ganun lang ka simple.

Life is different from matter. Life needs fuel to remain in existence. Matter is and will always be there and it cannot be destroyed. Matter do not need fuel to remain in existence. It is life that can be destroyed. When you die the chemical elements remained but the life ceased to exist. Understand?:D

Living organism is different from inanimate objective. Inanimate objective (matter) will remained forever and can change its forms. Living organism (life in a matter) needs fuel (food) to remain living. Inanimate object do not need food to remain in existence.

So, you ultimately then agree that faith is not the means of knowledge. Therefore, faith is nothing but just an emotional assertion. You can't define it objectively only subjectively. To know God by faith then logically means nothing. It's not at all knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge about the concrete physical existence of reality-of this world. And there is only one world-one reality-one life.
There is no need to mention names about priest whom I talked. You can talked to your nearby priest or pastor. They all have the same idea. They all believe on reality without any proof.

agta
06-21-2008, 11:11 PM
To Agta,

It seems that you do not understand what is life. There's lots of proof of it. A single cell of amoeba to the complex human being are proof of life. Just observed them. The cell of amoeba have to absorb the nutruients to fuel its life.:D So the same with human, you have to absorb the fuel to sustain your life. The continuous absorbing of the fuel to remain alive is constant process for living organisms. That is objectively what life is. Put off that process, living organism will eventually die. That is simple to understand. Why can't you? Life is a continous action of self-sustaining. How? By absorbing the food as fuel to life. Huwag kang kumain di ba mamamatay ka? Ganun lang ka simple.

Life is different from matter. Life needs fuel to remain in existence. Matter is and will always be there and it cannot be destroyed. Matter do not need fuel to remain in existence. It is life that can be destroyed. When you die the chemical elements remained but the life ceased to exist. Understand?:D

Living organism is different from inanimate objective. Inanimate objective (matter) will remained forever and can change its forms. Living organism (life in a matter) needs fuel (food) to remain living. Inanimate object do not need food to remain in existence.

So, you ultimately then agree that faith is not the means of knowledge. Therefore, faith is nothing but just an emotional assertion. You can't define it objectively only subjectively. To know God by faith then logically means nothing. It's not at all knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge about the concrete physical existence of reality-of this world. And there is only one world-one reality-one life.
There is no need to mention names about priest whom I talked. You can talked to your nearby priest or pastor. They all have the same idea. They all believe on reality without any proof.

To tell you frankly, you are lying! Priests do not preach that faith is out of this world!

Yes, amoeba has to absorb nutrients to fuel its life. Put off the process of absorbing the fuel,the organism will die. No question about that. The question is: Where did life come from? If an organism stops absorbing what you call "the fuel", then the organism shall die. It is like when a person commits suicide, then he shall die. That fact does not answer the question of where did life come from.
Matter is either alive or dead. When matter which is alive is subjected to forces that kills it, then it dies. But did you kill life? No. That particular matter only died. But life is still around as manifested by those matters that are alive.

DJ Dwinx
06-22-2008, 05:57 AM
Pssssssssst.... Read the Bible and there you'll know how life started and who started it...:)

agta
06-22-2008, 06:44 AM
Pssssssssst.... Read the Bible and there you'll know how life started and who started it...:)
You are right! Unfortunately, the bible could not help the organism known as actpataganan. This organism does not believe in the bible and more so in God. That is why he must answer the question apart from the bible.

hummingbird
06-22-2008, 11:45 PM
Pssssssssst.... Read the Bible and there you'll know how life started and who started it...:)

Hi! dj dwinx....thank you for the information.:)

we missed you at the chatroom!!!! come, stop by just to say hello!!!!

acpatagnan
06-24-2008, 11:51 AM
To Agta,

As I said inanimate object like rock, steel, paper etc do not have life. It is only plants, animals, man that have life. Life is a process. It is a continious process of absorbing fuel to remain in existence or alive. When plants, animals, and man die, they stop absorbing fuel or nutrients. Right? What happened to the body? They disintegrate, the chemical elements remains. But no life.


The ultimate form of matter (atoms), chemicals cannot be destroyed only changes its form by varous combination. The origin, how it started no one knows. There are theories: 1. the scientific: evolution, big bang etc and (2.) the religiious theory-creationism.

Under scientific it is still inconclusive and still on the process of discovering the evidence.

Under religion, it is finall. The religion concluded God is the creator. It is by faith only no proof. Sabi-sabi lang ng Biblia , Koran, ng mga maraming tao.


Science versus religion. Same Reason versus faith. Where do you belong? You cannot belong to both. If you say you belong to both, you are not telling the truth.

It is true, Agta, that faith is not of this world. It is beyond this world-the unknowable world, world cannot be discovered by the mind. Faith is not based on senses. That is religious faith.:D

acpatagnan
06-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Pssssssssst.... Read the Bible and there you'll know how life started and who started it...:)

It is not the proof. The worshiping and the praying of majority is NOT the proof of truth.


When somebody say (statement) that there is E.T., that statement does not consist as a proof or evidence. You have to show, identify the existence of E.T. :):D

acpatagnan
06-24-2008, 12:06 PM
You are right! Unfortunately, the bible could not help the organism known as actpataganan. This organism does not believe in the bible and more so in God. That is why he must answer the question apart from the bible.


To know is to acquire knowledge. What is the basis of knowledge? What is the tool of knowing the real concrete world? What is knowledge? It is knowledge about the world.

Bible is not the source of knowledge. It is a piece of literature, stories, allegories, poems and history about a certain nation or culture--the Jews.:D
Mostly it tells about ethics or religious morality.:D

agta
06-24-2008, 09:16 PM
To know is to acquire knowledge. What is the basis of knowledge? What is the tool of knowing the real concrete world? What is knowledge? It is knowledge about the world.

Bible is not the source of knowledge. It is a piece of literature, stories, allegories, poems and history about a certain nation or culture--the Jews.:D
Mostly it tells about ethics or religious morality.:D
That is already a desperate assertion. You already have said that before. And that has already been refuted by the fact of life. Just read again the whole thread and you will find how your assertion has been torn to pieces.:)

acpatagnan
06-28-2008, 10:49 AM
The thread is Faith versus reason. To summarize briefly:

What is faith?
What is reason?

It is accepted by many that faith is believing on something that has no proof or evidence. It is, to be exact religious faith. It is faith on supernatural without showing a valid proof to support the claim. They (religion) claim to have knowledge about the supernatural but cannot give the means of how they arrived at that knowledge. What is the means? The answer is faith. In other words it is opposite of reason.

What is reason?

Reason is man's ONLY tool of knowledge. The basis of reason is his sense perception. Human sense organ is man's contact with the reality and there is no other way. There is only one reality-the real concrete physical world. And the function of consciousness, reason and thinking is to acquire the knowledge about what? Of course, the physical world. What for? For man's own benefit, for his survival, for his own life. The proof or evidence of his acquired knowledge is the reality (the world).


Now, the difference is very clear, no doubt about.


The foundation of knowledge is philosophy. Philosophy deals with the view about the nature of reality, deals about the nature of knowledge. Objectively, the axiom: EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS and IDENTITY is the foundation of the Objectivism-the philosophy of Ayn Rand.


Religion is also a philosophy-a primitive or old form of philosophy. It also has view about the nature of reality. According to religion, there are two reality: the natural world and the supernatural world. This idea originated in the west by Plato. Put much emphasis on the supernatural. About the nature of knowledge, there is another means of knowledge: revelation, faith, esp, clairvoyance.

Majority, as of the present day, belongs to the old form of philosophy.


Faith needs reason in order to survive, but reason do not need faith.

Religion needs science in order to remain in existence, but science do not need religion as history is the proof of it.

Religion suppressed, obstruct the progress of science. But science do not suppressed, obstruction religion. Religion just fade away. Now they arises like a zombie.

Truth based on the process of reason is a solid rock of knowledge which is science:D :D:D:)

Jeff
06-28-2008, 01:15 PM
Halimbawa lang Mr. Patagnan ay kasama ka sa barko na lunod noong nakaraang bagyo at buhay ka. Ano kayang reasons ang pwedi mong sabihin, na magaling ka na swimmer? at yung namatay ay hindi? Anong reason ngayon ang sasabihin mo sa mga bantang namatay? na ang bagyo ay gawa ng tao? or a just a freak accident made by nature?

Dapat tumahimik kana sa mga non sense mo na thread. Mag basa kanalang kaya ng biblia o quoran.

acpatagnan
07-01-2008, 08:28 PM
Halimbawa lang Mr. Patagnan ay kasama ka sa barko na lunod noong nakaraang bagyo at buhay ka. Ano kayang reasons ang pwedi mong sabihin, na magaling ka na swimmer? at yung namatay ay hindi? Anong reason ngayon ang sasabihin mo sa mga bantang namatay? na ang bagyo ay gawa ng tao? or a just a freak accident made by nature?

Dapat tumahimik kana sa mga non sense mo na thread. Mag basa kanalang kaya ng biblia o quoran.

May kaugnayan ba ang katanungan mo sa paksang tinatalakay dito?

The topic is Faith versus reason.


Accidents do happened. But it does not happened every minute of your life. Nothing to argue about that. There are natural disasters and man-made disasters. What happened about the MV Princes of Star was an accident. What was the caused of that accident? The natural and the man's action combined. Every year we know that typhoon occurs in our country. Typhoons are dangerous. That is a well-known fact. What happened to MV Princess of STar was an error on man's decision. And that decision caused loss of life. If there is accident, man has the power to avoid it. Man has the tool to do it-THINKING, his mind. Science has done a lot to minimize and avoid accidents.


Walang dahilan para ako tumahimik. Nabasa ko na ang Biblia at Koran. Maraming akong hindi sang-ayong sa mga sinasabi nito at ito ay ikang isasawalat sa lahat ng gustong makinig o magbasa dito. Maramin akong masasabing kung ano ang mali sa Biblia at Koran.:D

Magbigay ka ng dahilan kung bakit ito none sense. Support your statement. Justify the why?

acpatagnan
07-05-2008, 09:33 AM
Faith versus reason.

It has been proven that faith is opposite of reason in all aspect of knowledge, nature of things and in the action(choices) of man.

It is like a color: To combined Black and White the result is Gray.
To combined Faith and Reason the result is confusion and hypocrisy destroying the mind.

Finally, it is either you stand on Faith alone or in the conviction of reason alone. You cannot have both. Combining food and poison, death is the result. We have to separate food from poison. That's all.:D

brategamete
02-18-2009, 11:43 PM
Halimbawa lang Mr. Patagnan ay kasama ka sa barko na lunod noong nakaraang bagyo at buhay ka. Ano kayang reasons ang pwedi mong sabihin, na magaling ka na swimmer? at yung namatay ay hindi? Anong reason ngayon ang sasabihin mo sa mga bantang namatay? na ang bagyo ay gawa ng tao? or a just a freak accident made by nature?

Dapat tumahimik kana sa mga non sense mo na thread. Mag basa kanalang kaya ng biblia o quoran.

Huwag lang ang Koran.

Read first the Bible.

brategamete
02-18-2009, 11:46 PM
May kaugnayan ba ang katanungan mo sa paksang tinatalakay dito?

The topic is Faith versus reason.


Accidents do happened. But it does not happened every minute of your life. Nothing to argue about that. There are natural disasters and man-made disasters. What happened about the MV Princes of Star was an accident. What was the caused of that accident? The natural and the man's action combined. Every year we know that typhoon occurs in our country. Typhoons are dangerous. That is a well-known fact. What happened to MV Princess of STar was an error on man's decision. And that decision caused loss of life. If there is accident, man has the power to avoid it. Man has the tool to do it-THINKING, his mind. Science has done a lot to minimize and avoid accidents.


Walang dahilan para ako tumahimik. Nabasa ko na ang Biblia at Koran. Maraming akong hindi sang-ayong sa mga sinasabi nito at ito ay ikang isasawalat sa lahat ng gustong makinig o magbasa dito. Maramin akong masasabing kung ano ang mali sa Biblia at Koran.:D

Magbigay ka ng dahilan kung bakit ito none sense. Support your statement. Justify the why?

This thread for me is EXCELLENT. I love it. I appreciate you for it.

I am interested sa sinabi mong "Maramin akong masasabing kung ano ang mali sa Biblia at Koran."

Please post them here...

brategamete
02-18-2009, 11:54 PM
Faith versus reason.

It has been proven that faith is opposite of reason in all aspect of knowledge, nature of things and in the action(choices) of man.

It is like a color: To combined Black and White the result is Gray.
To combined Faith and Reason the result is confusion and hypocrisy destroying the mind.

Finally, it is either you stand on Faith alone or in the conviction of reason alone. You cannot have both. Combining food and poison, death is the result. We have to separate food from poison. That's all.:D

I somewhat agree.

But what FAITH?

Because for me FAITH to the Word of GOD has no need of reason.

I asked my sweetheart one day, "Why do you love me?"
"I love you because, I just love you, dear!" she answered.

If you have faith in Jesus, then even if there's no reason you're on the right ground. If there is reason there, the reason is FAITH. Just like my sweetheart, the reason why she loves me is love.

On the other hand, FAITH to others (other than Jesus), must be tested by reason. Because only Jesus is "the way, the truth, the life." John 14:6

agta
02-21-2009, 04:32 PM
"What is love without time...What is time without love.."

Ay mali...It should be:

"What is reason without faith...What is faith without reason..."

brategamete
02-26-2009, 12:23 PM
Let your reason be your faith. Let your faith be your reason. Equals.

acpatagnan
06-19-2009, 10:28 PM
Long vacation from this thread.

"To see is to believe." This means to understand, to grasp is to believe. It is dangerous thing to believe on something that you do not understand. The result is failure, suffering and even death. Religious faith is believing on something without understanding for any evidence or proof. According to religion, God is incomprehensible by the human mind. What that supposed to mean? It only means that the human mind is NOT the tools of knowing; it is not the means of grasping anything that exist. It only means an attacked against the nature of the human mind. Thus, religion and its books the Bible and Koran is anti-mind.

This is the undeniable proof that can be found in the "Holy" Book: God bans Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Why? God do not want you to use your thinking power. What does He wnat? Obedience from you. Since there is no such being called God, it is only other men who are asking you to obey: the religious leaders, starting your own parents. LOL

agta
06-20-2009, 08:22 AM
Long vacation from this thread.
It is dangerous thing to believe on something that you do not understand. The result is failure, suffering and even death.

So, you believe in what you said above! Now, therefore, before you typed those words captioned above, did you see them? No, you did not see them. As inorganic things,they existed only in your mind just as a letter of the alphabet exists only in the mind. They have no objective existence of their own. But because you believe the truth of your idea, so you made representations of them in the external world, for one, through the use of letters of the alphabet which man also simply invented.

Clearly then, although man usually believes in what his physical eyes could see, he nevertheless believes in what his heart and mind could see and thence attempts to make representations of them in the external world however crude such representations maybe. In that case, we can therefore say that "we saw because we believe".

brategamete
06-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Long vacation from this thread.

"To see is to believe." This means to understand, to grasp is to believe. It is dangerous thing to believe on something that you do not understand. The result is failure, suffering and even death. Religious faith is believing on something without understanding for any evidence or proof. According to religion, God is incomprehensible by the human mind. What that supposed to mean? It only means that the human mind is NOT the tools of knowing; it is not the means of grasping anything that exist. It only means an attacked against the nature of the human mind. Thus, religion and its books the Bible and Koran is anti-mind.

This is the undeniable proof that can be found in the "Holy" Book: God bans Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Why? God do not want you to use your thinking power. What does He wnat? Obedience from you. Since there is no such being called God, it is only other men who are asking you to obey: the religious leaders, starting your own parents. LOL

"To see is to believe" is a line for people who dont have faith and dont want to believe what he cannot see.

Example: a man cannot see his brain so he doesnt believe he has one
a man cannot see his nerves so he doesnt believe he has
a man actually cannot see NaCl but he does believe salt

The Bible says: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1

Lets talk about God.

Do you have evidence that God does not exist?

The Bible tells us that He reveals to us the knowledge of Him.

God is infinite. Man is finite.

According to St. Augustine: "Infinitum pusit capere finitum."
It means, "the Infinite cannot be comprehended by the finite."

It is like putting the whole ocean to a little whole in the shore.

The human mind MR acpatagnan is finite.

Proof:
1) can u see the wind?
2) can u explain life? can u explain origin? from a protozoa? and then where did it come from?

See? The mind does not know everything. So is yours.

Your rational mind just rationalizes. But just finite. You don't know everything. There are things the mind doesnt know. It can only be known through FAITH.

Better have faith in the Creator of all things.