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justme
06-17-2008, 10:21 PM
I understand completely if anyone needs proof. God created our hearts and our minds, and it is irrational and unjust to think that He would want us to be satisfied emotionally but not intellectually with His truth. Too often we see the former, but not the latter. When we search for the truth, we should engage our minds first so that we can evaluate the evidence using our God-given intellects, and engage our emotions once we have found that truth, so that we can be fully committed to it with all of our being. Throughout all stages however, we should begin by asking God - the One True God on whom all things depend - to guide us to be be closer to Him. Ultimately, guidance is from Him alone.

We should not accept blind faith. If something is the truth, why would it require blind faith ? Why should a doctrine be unclear, contradictory, or confusing ? These are attributes of doctrines created by men, not of those pure beliefs that God has instilled in our hearts naturally, and those He wishes us to develop.

For example, all human beings are born with a predisposition to recognize and worship the One True God. This is part of the reason many of us find it impossible to deny God. Even if we are not sure of where His message might be, we know He exists. The true religion is, and always has been, a confirmation of this inborn instinct - to worship none other than God, in other words, pure monotheism, and to follow His guidance for the betterment of our life and afterlife. This has been the central message of all of the prophets, including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad the final messenger, peace be upon them all. Some of the laws they were commanded with differed according to the requirements of the particular nation to whom they were sent, but the core teachings were always the same. This common religion is, quite literally, "Islam" - a word which means, "submission to the will of God". One who submits to the will of God is a "Muslim".

The revelation from God should be clear. God does not want to confuse us, He wants us to follow Him. If it is really is from God, it should be perfect, free of internal and external (historical, scientific) contradictions, and it should be preserved without error. The Gospels present a big problem. They are not the direct speech of God, or even of his Messenger, Jesus, peace be upon him. They are biographies written after Jesus ascended to God by men whose identities we cannot be certain of, written with specific theological agendas in mind. Where are the true words of Jesus ? Why is there so little that is reportedly said by him, not even in his original language, and much said by other men, supposedly inspired ? (Although a quick read of the opening of Luke, or III John would indicate deliberate, intentioned writing, not a revelatory or inspired experience). And why is Paul, a man who never met Jesus but claimed to see him in a vision, important enough to be able to articulate key doctrines that Jesus never taught, and to cancel laws that Jesus himself followed ?

The evidence unearthed so far for the historical Jesus is much closer to the Islamic position than the Christian one. A picture of a righteous man emerges, who followed the tradition and laws of Moses, but concentrated on reviving the true spirit of God's message amongst the Children of Israel, who for the most part had become obsessed with formal and legalistic issues whilst losing the mercy, love and gentleness that the guidance of God should develop. We know that the doctrines of the trinity, incarnation, the sacrificed savior, divine sonship and others all have parellels in the pagan cultures (Roman, Greek, Persian) prevelant at the time these doctrines were being formulated. The idea of God fathering offspring, or of God-men walking amongst us owes much more to the influence of these pagan ideas than to pure monotheism - the belief in and worship of the One, Unseen, Transcendent God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all. Despite the corruption of the Bible, there remain explicit statements in support of real monotheism (whilst there is no explicit support for trinity - except perhaps 1 John5 -7, thrown out in the RSV and most modern bibles as an interpolation, but which remains in the KJV..), and in support of the humanity of Jesus and his subserviance to God (whereas verses alleged to indicate his divinity are obscure and rely upon a lot of interpretation).

Our belief in Jesus is not that he is just a righteous man, but that he is one of the greatest messengers of God, like Moses before him, and Muhammad after him, peace be upon them all. We believe in his virgin birth, and his miracles like raising the dead, healing the sick, and so on. We believe that God saved him from his enemies and did not allow him to be crucified, and that he will return to earth near the end of time to complete his mission.

Muslims believe they are the true followers of Jesus. Jesus worshipped only God - a strict monotheist, as Muslims are today. He "fell on his face and prayed" - the characteristic of Muslim prayer. He fasted, just as we do. He didn't eat pork, and neither do we. He greeted his disciples with "peace be to you" - and this is the universal Islamic greeting - in Arabic "Assalamu'alaikum". "Isa" - which is the Arabic form of "Jesus" is even a common name for Muslim boys. Moreover, we love him deeply, and believe in him completely. When he returns to earth, it is the Muslims, not the Christians who he will recognize as the true followers of all of the prophets, including himself.

There are a number of reasons to take the Qur'an as a reliable account of who Jesus is, what he said, and what he did. First of all, the Qur'an does not claim to be the words of men (or a man), whether inspired or not. It claims to be the literal, word for word speech of God Himself, and offers evidence for it's claims. Secondly, it is perfectly preserved, through massive parallel chains of memmorization passed on from generation to generation (a practice alive and well today - with tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims around the world who have memmorized the entire book), and in writing, since the time it was revealed.

Those who doubt the Qur'an claim it was written by Muhammad, but it is well known that he was illiterate, like the vast majority of people of Arabia at that time. What we do know about him is that he was known for his honesty and good conduct, to the extent that he was nicknamed 'Al-Amin' - the trustworthy, and called upon to arbitrate in the bitter disputes between the Arabs. We know that he kept away from idolatry, adultery and all the other evils of his time, and chose to worship only the God of Abraham, his forefather. Besides, how does an illiterate man compose what is acknowledged as the most beautiful work ever produced in the Arabic language ? Actually it goes further - the Qur'an challenges anyone to produce a chapter like it. The Arabs were excellent poets and knew how to use their language well, but none were able to match the depth, power and beauty of the Qur'an. This is not a subjective evaluation. Arabic is divided into 16 forms (called "bihar") - one for speech, one for poetry, and so on. The Qur'an fit into none of these forms. In other words, it was a completely new pattern, it defied linguistic classification, and at the same time moved men to tears, and sometimes to embrace Islam, merely upon hearing it's sublime words. This is just one aspect of the miracle of the Qur'an. It also contains explicit, precise prophecies which have come to pass, and information about scientific and natural phenomena, such as the development of the human embryo, which have only recently come to be known in the light of modern instrumentation and techniques.

In summary, it is this, and nothing less, that we should expect from a book that claims to be of divine origin, upon whose teachings we have chosen to base our lives.

agta
06-17-2008, 11:21 PM
The revelation from God should be clear. God does not want to confuse us, He wants us to follow Him. If it is really is from God, it should be perfect, free of internal and external (historical, scientific) contradictions, and it should be preserved without error. The Gospels present a big problem. They are not the direct speech of God, or even of his Messenger, Jesus, peace be upon him. They are biographies written after Jesus ascended to God by men whose identities we cannot be certain of, written with specific theological agendas in mind. Where are the true words of Jesus ? Why is there so little that is reportedly said by him, not even in his original language, and much said by other men, supposedly inspired ? (Although a quick read of the opening of Luke, or III John would indicate deliberate, intentioned writing, not a revelatory or inspired experience). And why is Paul, a man who never met Jesus but claimed to see him in a vision, important enough to be able to articulate key doctrines that Jesus never taught, and to cancel laws that Jesus himself followed ?
It is not surprising if the gospels present a big problem to you, a Muslim. Just as the Quoran likwise present a big problem to me. But although the Quoran present a big problem to me, there is nothing I can do about it. It is a book considered precious by the Muslim people, so be it to them. It is none of my business questioning their religion or their beliefs so long as they would not inflict harm upon my people.

But when a Muslim starts questioning the authenticity of the book that I too hold precious, then that Muslim be better prepared for a word war that he is playing to initiate. We shall take all questions one by one, purely, objectively and charitably.

justme
06-18-2008, 08:19 AM
It is not surprising if the gospels present a big problem to you, a Muslim. Just as the Quoran likwise present a big problem to me. But although the Quoran present a big problem to me, there is nothing I can do about it. It is a book considered precious by the Muslim people, so be it to them. It is none of my business questioning their religion or their beliefs so long as they would not inflict harm upon my people.

But when a Muslim starts questioning the authenticity of the book that I too hold precious, then that Muslim be better prepared for a word war that he is playing to initiate. We shall take all questions one by one, purely, objectively and charitably.

Actually madam, I was once a Christian, raised by a religious lola, and as a human being in search for God. I happen to study the Bible, the doctrines, teachings etc. and there are so many unanswered questions... using the power of intellect and observation I was able to see in a broad manner what is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity. So I seek, I searched and prayed to be enlighten and guided for i dont want to part in this life without even knowing my Creator. Since then different religions attracted me but only in Islam that were my questions were answered, doubts cleared and faith strongly connected to the one and only God...:) and because of that I have peace...

agta
06-18-2008, 08:52 PM
Actually madam, I was once a Christian, raised by a religious lola, and as a human being in search for God. I happen to study the Bible, the doctrines, teachings etc. and there are so many unanswered questions... using the power of intellect and observation I was able to see in a broad manner what is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity. So I seek, I searched and prayed to be enlighten and guided for i dont want to part in this life without even knowing my Creator. Since then different religions attracted me but only in Islam that were my questions were answered, doubts cleared and faith strongly connected to the one and only God...:) and because of that I have peace...
So, may I pursue the issue you raised here: What is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity?

justme
06-18-2008, 11:07 PM
So, may I pursue the issue you raised here: What is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity?

1. The Divinity of the Holiness of the Bible
2. The Doctrine of Trinity
3. The Doctrine of Divinity of Jesus (Is Jesus God?)
4. The Doctrine of Sonship of Jesus(Is Jesus the Son of God?)
5. The doctrines of Paul (Is he an apostle of Jesus?No)
6. The doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

These are the major topics...


at kung hihimay himayin po yan eh makikita po talaga kung saan nakabase ang Kristiyanismo...

agta
06-19-2008, 05:32 AM
1. The Divinity of the Holiness of the Bible
2. The Doctrine of Trinity
3. The Doctrine of Divinity of Jesus (Is Jesus God?)
4. The Doctrine of Sonship of Jesus(Is Jesus the Son of God?)
5. The doctrines of Paul (Is he an apostle of Jesus?No)
6. The doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

These are the major topics...


at kung hihimay himayin po yan eh makikita po talaga kung saan nakabase ang Kristiyanismo...

I see.

First of all, Christianity does not teach that the bible is Divine. Therefore, ang mali ay ang inyong paniwala, hindi ang turo ng Kristianismo.

Second, what is the doctrine of the Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity simply teaches that there is only One God composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To understand the oneness of these three distinct Divine Persons, we looked at the vine which has three branches: one extending toward the east, another toward the west, and another toward the north. Three branches in one vine; three persons in one God. This Divinity of each of the three persons in One God is revealed in the bible.

Third, Jesus is God, as revealed in our bible. You believe in your Quran, you don't have authority to deprive us to believe in our bible. Just as you have a right to believe in the Quran, we too have a right to believe in the bible.

Fourth, our bible tells us so, that Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God. Your Quran is yours, take it with you. But our bible is ours, so you do not have a right to prevent us from believing what is revealed in our bible.

Fifth, the concept of "apostle" is not limited to only one meaning. When we refer to the first twelve apostles of Jesus, then yes, there is no question, Paul is not one of them. But when we refer to one who has seen Jesus and decided to follow His will, then Paul had seen Jesus and followed His will. And by that criteria, Paul is right for claiming that he was an apostle.

Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another. Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.

Now, with all those clarifications, what makes them wrong to you? And how are they wrong?

viper
06-19-2008, 06:52 AM
Justme, since you have been criticizing Christianity and its tenets, may I pass it back to you by asking you: What is wrong with ISLAM?? Why is Koran teaching its followers to KILL THE INFIDELS?? (There are sooooooooo many questionable phrases in Koran that pertains to persecution of "NON-BELIEVERS"). WHY in the Middle East which is mostly Muslim, Strife is prevalent?? Could you say that to Christian countries??

echo101
06-19-2008, 12:50 PM
If God had chosen the jews as his chosen people, then why would he reveal His words to the arabs which is a gentile nation? I just don't get it...

justme
06-19-2008, 02:36 PM
I see.

First of all, Christianity does not teach that the bible is Divine. Therefore, ang mali ay ang inyong paniwala, hindi ang turo ng Kristianismo.
Okay…

Rephrase:

Do you believe that the Bible is God’s Word? If yes why?



Second, what is the doctrine of the Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity simply teaches that there is only One God composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To understand the oneness of these three distinct Divine Persons, we looked at the vine which has three branches: one extending toward the east, another toward the west, and another toward the north. Three branches in one vine; three persons in one God. This Divinity of each of the three persons in One God is revealed in the bible.

There is no such thing in the Bible as three persons in one God. Can you give the verse in the Bible?

Where in the Bible does it reveal the divinity of these three persons in one God?



Third, Jesus is God, as revealed in our bible. You believe in your Quran, you don't have authority to deprive us to believe in our bible. Just as you have a right to believe in the Quran, we too have a right to believe in the bible.

Can you give me the verse in the Bible were Jesus said he is God and the people should worship him.

I am not depriving you to believe in your Bible –nang uusisa lang po… masama bang magtanong?




Fourth, our bible tells us so, that Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God. Your Quran is yours, take it with you. But our bible is ours, so you do not have a right to prevent us from believing what is revealed in our bible.

If he is the only begotten Son of God…and if I can produce verses in the Bible that uses that term on other people in the Bible…will you accept that word should not be taken literally?

This statement raises a confusion…if Jesus is God…and he’s also begotten Son of God…. In a simple logic how many gods po nandiyan?

Sample: If God said to you that you are His begotten son…will you take it literally?

Again I’m not preventing you…each one of us can raise a question to a person…it’s our right and it should be in a proper manner.



Fifth, the concept of "apostle" is not limited to only one meaning. When we refer to the first twelve apostles of Jesus, then yes, there is no question, Paul is not one of them. But when we refer to one who has seen Jesus and decided to follow His will, then Paul had seen Jesus and followed His will. And by that criteria, Paul is right for claiming that he was an apostle.

If I can give you verses in the Bible that clearly states the contradictions of Paul’s statements that he have seen Jesus. Will you at least study it? Or weigh it?

If Jesus did not appoint him to be one of his apostle---then Paul has no right to be apostle. That means he is a self-proclaimed apostle of Jesus…at di pwde yan…




Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another. Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.

So you don’t believe in original sin?

And also in the crucifixion? Where Jesus should be crucified to save mankind…?




Now, with all those clarifications, what makes them wrong to you? And how are they wrong?

It’s not yet clarified po…that’s why I’m still having this discussion with you…ok lang po ba?

Btw, what’s your religion po?

justme
06-19-2008, 02:39 PM
If God had chosen the jews as his chosen people, then why would he reveal His words to the arabs which is a gentile nation? I just don't get it...

Echo101, im going to answer you...just be patient muna ha...

btw, i just want to let you know na mas gusto ko sana na kami muna ni mam Agta mag diskusyon dito sa forum na to...will that be okay with you?

pwde magmasid ka lang muna..ung audience lang muna ha...pwde ko bang asahan yan sau?

justme
06-19-2008, 02:44 PM
Justme, since you have been criticizing Christianity and its tenets, may I pass it back to you by asking you: What is wrong with ISLAM?? Why is Koran teaching its followers to KILL THE INFIDELS?? (There are sooooooooo many questionable phrases in Koran that pertains to persecution of "NON-BELIEVERS"). WHY in the Middle East which is mostly Muslim, Strife is prevalent?? Could you say that to Christian countries??

Actually po I'm not criticizing..iba po ung criticize sa nang uusisa...

You have misconception regarding Islam po...

If you could give me a verse in the Qur'an po in which you find it hard to understand...pwde po paki bigay nlng at sa abot ng aking makakaya eh tutugunan ko po mga katanungan niyo.

Bigyan niyo po muna ako ng panahon para dito...okay po ba...ill be back with you...

Sa ngaun eh gusto ko po muna maka diskusyon si mam agta...so pwde po ba audience po muna kau...?

echo101
06-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Echo101, im going to answer you...just be patient muna ha...

btw, i just want to let you know na mas gusto ko sana na kami muna ni mam Agta mag diskusyon dito sa forum na to...will that be okay with you?

pwde magmasid ka lang muna..ung audience lang muna ha...pwde ko bang asahan yan sau?


ok.. no problem.. cge magbabasa-basa nlng muna ako.. kaso baka nman bigla mu nlng ulit iclose ang thread ha.. gaya nung huli, ndi na tuloy ako nakasagot...

justme
06-19-2008, 03:16 PM
ok.. no problem.. cge magbabasa-basa nlng muna ako.. kaso baka nman bigla mu nlng ulit iclose ang thread ha.. gaya nung huli, ndi na tuloy ako nakasagot...

sige po..thank you po... sorry nga pala kinailangan ko ng iclose ung thread kasi di po ninyo sinasagot ung mga tanong...

anyways tapos na po un...marami pong salamat ulit...:)

agta
06-19-2008, 11:38 PM
Okay…

Rephrase:

Do you believe that the Bible is God’s Word? If yes why?In a figurative sense, yes, the Holy Bible maybe said to be God's Word. For God inspired men to write what He wanted them to write according to how their limited being would express them in their time and culture. In that sense do I believe that the Holy Bible is God's Word.


There is no such thing in the Bible as three persons in one God. Can you give the verse in the Bible?
....
Where in the Bible does it reveal the divinity of these three persons in one God?
The three persons are specifically mentioned in Mathew 28:19, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Now, is the Heavenly Father not God? Jesus,falling with his face to the ground, prayed to the Father, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Math 26:39) No doubt the Father is God.

How about the Son? The Son, Jesus Christ, was also worshipped. (Mathew 28:8-9; Mark 10:17). St. Paul said, "Paul, an apostle, sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.." (Galatians 1:1). And the same St. Paul declared in Romans 9:5 thus, "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.". There is no doubt, Jesus Christ, the Son, is God.

How about the Holy Spirit?
In Acts 5:3-4 Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." To whom did Ananias lie? He lied to God. No doubt here, the Holy Spirit is God.


I am not depriving you to believe in your Bible –nang uusisa lang po… masama bang magtanong?
Hindi masama ang magtanong. But your case is different. Right from your initial post of this thread, you were not asking but already positively declaring that Christianity is full of wrongs.


If he is the only begotten Son of God…and if I can produce verses in the Bible that uses that term on other people in the Bible…will you accept that word should not be taken literally?
Depends upon the context of how the word is used. Show it here and let us see how would it falsify Jesus being the Only-Begotten Son of God.


This statement raises a confusion…if Jesus is God…and he’s also begotten Son of God…. In a simple logic how many gods po nandiyan?
It is not confusing at all! They are two given facts which reveal to us somehow the truth about God. Remember the example of the Vine. Only one vine but it has three branches: the one extending toward the east is a vine; the one toward the west is vine; and the one toward the north is also vine. But how many vine are there? There was only one Vine, but it has three branches.


Sample: If God said to you that you are His begotten son…will you take it literally?
Yes, of course! But if and only if he would say that to me which I am 100% sure He would not.


Again I’m not preventing you…each one of us can raise a question to a person…it’s our right and it should be in a proper manner.
Yes, ask questions. But do not say to us that our bible is full of doubts, for then it would be as unfair as when we would say to you that your Quran is fall of garbage.


If I can give you verses in the Bible that clearly states the contradictions of Paul’s statements that he have seen Jesus. Will you at least study it? Or weigh it?
Just do what you need to do here. It is your duty to substantiate your adverse accusations about Christian teachings. And better do it satisfactorily and well.


If Jesus did not appoint him to be one of his apostle---then Paul has no right to be apostle. That means he is a self-proclaimed apostle of Jesus…at di pwde yan… That is if you were Jesus. Unfortunately, you are not Jesus.


So you don’t believe in original sin?
My goodness, it seems to me you did not read my post #6 in this thread! I do believe in original sin, and I even explained it in post#6!


And also in the crucifixion? Where Jesus should be crucified to save mankind…?
The bible affirms that Jesus was crucified. And you knew right from the start that I do not oppose what is affirmed or revealed in the bible.

Jesus was crucified to fulfill what was written of Him, so that those who believe in Him may have life everlasting. Therefore, although salvation is a gift, one has to believe and abide in His words in order to receive God's generous gift.

agta
06-20-2008, 12:06 AM
. The Gospels present a big problem. They are not the direct speech of God, or even of his Messenger, Jesus, peace be upon him. They are biographies written after Jesus ascended to God by men whose identities we cannot be certain of, written with specific theological agendas in mind. Where are the true words of Jesus ? Why is there so little that is reportedly said by him, not even in his original language, and much said by other men, supposedly inspired ? (Although a quick read of the opening of Luke, or III John would indicate deliberate, intentioned writing, not a revelatory or inspired experience). And why is Paul, a man who never met Jesus but claimed to see him in a vision, important enough to be able to articulate key doctrines that Jesus never taught, and to cancel laws that Jesus himself followed ?

The evidence unearthed so far for the historical Jesus is much closer to the Islamic position than the Christian one.

Our belief in Jesus is not that he is just a righteous man, but that he is one of the greatest messengers of God, like Moses before him, and Muhammad after him, peace be upon them all. We believe in his virgin birth, and his miracles like raising the dead, healing the sick, and so on. We believe that God saved him from his enemies and did not allow him to be crucified, and that he will return to earth near the end of time to complete his mission.

Muslims believe they are the true followers of Jesus. Jesus worshipped only God - a strict monotheist, as Muslims are today. He "fell on his face and prayed" - the characteristic of Muslim prayer. He fasted, just as we do. He didn't eat pork, and neither do we. He greeted his disciples with "peace be to you" - and this is the universal Islamic greeting - in Arabic "Assalamu'alaikum". "Isa" - which is the Arabic form of "Jesus" is even a common name for Muslim boys. Moreover, we love him deeply, and believe in him completely. When he returns to earth, it is the Muslims, not the Christians who he will recognize as the true followers of all of the prophets, including himself.


Actually madam, I was once a Christian, raised by a religious lola, and as a human being in search for God. I happen to study the Bible, the doctrines, teachings etc. and there are so many unanswered questions... using the power of intellect and observation I was able to see in a broad manner what is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity. So I seek, I searched and prayed to be enlighten and guided for i dont want to part in this life without even knowing my Creator. Since then different religions attracted me but only in Islam that were my questions were answered, doubts cleared and faith strongly connected to the one and only God...:) and because of that I have peace...



Emphasis purposely made by me.

Jeff
06-20-2008, 12:46 PM
1. The Divinity of the Holiness of the Bible
2. The Doctrine of Trinity
3. The Doctrine of Divinity of Jesus (Is Jesus God?)
4. The Doctrine of Sonship of Jesus(Is Jesus the Son of God?)
5. The doctrines of Paul (Is he an apostle of Jesus?No)
6. The doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

These are the major topics...


at kung hihimay himayin po yan eh makikita po talaga kung saan nakabase ang Kristiyanismo...

It seems mare that entirely you did not read the whole context of the BIBLE. Or you read it but not in open mind. I suggest you need to read it by context and try to understand verse by verse. All you seek for an answers are there mare.

justme
06-27-2008, 12:38 PM
In a figurative sense, yes, the Holy Bible maybe said to be God's Word. For God inspired men to write what He wanted them to write according to how their limited being would express them in their time and culture. In that sense do I believe that the Holy Bible is God's Word.

Will you agree then that if it’s the Word of God it should not contain errors?
Another observation lang po:
Christians themselves label their Gospels as — "The Gospel according to St. Matthew", "The Gospel according to St. Mark", "The Gospel according to St. Luke" and "The Gospel according to St. John". Why is it there is NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS (peace be upon him)?



The three persons are specifically mentioned in Mathew 28:19, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Now, is the Heavenly Father not God? Jesus,falling with his face to the ground, prayed to the Father, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Math 26:39) No doubt the Father is God.

How about the Son? The Son, Jesus Christ, was also worshipped. (Mathew 28:8-9; Mark 10:17). St. Paul said, "Paul, an apostle, sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.." (Galatians 1:1). And the same St. Paul declared in Romans 9:5 thus, "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.". There is no doubt, Jesus Christ, the Son, is God.

How about the Holy Spirit?
In Acts 5:3-4 Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." To whom did Ananias lie? He lied to God. No doubt here, the Holy Spirit is God.

Alam niyo po, di ba sabi niyo 3 in 1 sila…papaano po naging 1 po yan jaan…let’s picture it out ha…the father is in heaven == 1 god yan ha…Jesus falling with his face to the ground, prayed to the father ==(according sa inyo god din si Jesus diba so) another 1 God yan ha.. …ilan po ba yang nanjan? Isa lang po ba yan? Miski siguro 5 years malalaman na dalawa yang nanjan…

At saka if diyos ka bakit ka magdadasal sa ibang diyos? Logic po…hindi po pwdeng ang God magdasal sa another God…

So if persons po ang turing ninyo diyan sa trinity ninyo eh lalabas pa rin po na tatlo ang diyos ninyo kaso tatlo ang isip.

ang Ama ay may sariling isip

ang Anak ay may sariling isip

ang ES ay may sariling isip

isa lang ba ang isip ng bawat persona? Hindi, dahil kung isa lang yun e di na magdadasal si Jesus sa ama. Ang anak ay sinugo ng ama. Ang ES ay sinusugo ng ama at ng anak.


Saan ba sila iisa? Sa katawan, pero tatlo isip? Hindi naman siguro, dahil naniniwala sila na walang katawan ang ama.

Saan sila iisa? Sa purpose? Ayon sa NT; “ako at ang ama ay iisa” ok, iisa sila sa purpose, ok yan.

Pero yung pagiging “ONE” ng Diyos sa OT ba ay tumutukoy sa pagiging “one in purpose” nila? Ang Diyos ba na tinutukoy sa OT ay isang Diyos na may tatlong isip o persona? Yung tatlong persona ba ang nagsasalita doon sa OT?

Tignan nga natin yung mga talata ng biblia…


Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Anong klaseng “one” ang tinutukoy dito? One in purpose? One body? One person?
Deut 32:12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

Sino yang alone na yan? Sino yang him na walang ibang diyos na kasama? Yung tatlong persona ba ang tinutukoy dyan?

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Sino yang I, he, at me na yan? Tatlong persona bang chorus na nagsasalita yan? Tatlong isip ba yang nagsasalita dyan? Kung yung ama ang nagsasalita dyan e di hindi diyos ang anak. Kung si Jesus ang nagsasalita dyan e di hindi diyos ang ama.

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Sino yang he na yan? Sino yang wala nang ibang diyos bukod sa him na yan?

Tatlong persona bang chorus na nagsasalita yan? Tatlong isip ba yang nagsasalita dyan? Kung yung ama ang nagsasalita dyan e di hindi diyos ang anak. Kung si Jesus ang nagsasalita dyan e di hindi diyos ang ama.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Wala nang iba pang Diyos kahit saan, he lang. kaninong isip ang nagsabi nyan? Isip ban ng Ama yan? O ng anak?

_________________________________________________

Ang dami pang mga talata, eto pa:

Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

Jer 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


2 Sam 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

IKing 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

_________________________________________________

Isa lang ang nagsasalita o ang tinutukoy na Diyos dyan sa mga talatang yan. Hindi isang diyos na may tatlong isip o persona.

makikita nyo rin dyan na napakaimportante na malaman ng tao na isa lang sya talaga at walang kasama o katulad, kaya paulit ulit nyang pinaaalala ito.

At makikita nyo rin dyan na ang Diyos ay pinagmamalaki at nililinaw nya na siya lang ang Diyos at siya ay Diyos na hindi pwedeng ikumpara kaninuman. Samantalang si Jesus ay di nilinaw na syay Diyos kundi puro HINTS lang ang binabsehan ng mga christians sa New testament na pilit nilang ikinakabit sa mga Jewish scriptures.



Hindi masama ang magtanong. But your case is different. Right from your initial post of this thread, you were not asking but already positively declaring that Christianity is full of wrongs.

Well, nakikita po sa sarili ninyong Bibliya ang mga mali kaya ko pa yan nasabi…



Depends upon the context of how the word is used. Show it here and let us see how would it falsify Jesus being the Only-Begotten Son of God.

Eto po ung verse:
God said to David (Psalms 2:7): "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David]: 'Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."'

So David is also God's begotten son.

So if you say na si Jesus lang ang only -begotten son of God…it would mean na this verse from the Bible is wrong….and if you say na this verse is true then if would falsify Jesus as being the Only-begotten son of God…



Yes, of course! But if and only if he would say that to me which I am 100% sure He would not.

Ang tanong ko po eh literal niyo po bang tatangapin ang term na ginamit na “Son of God” or “begotten Son”? kasi batay sa paniniwala ninyo eh literal po kasi ang pagkakaintindi ninyo sa paggamit ng term na yan kay Jesus (peace be upon him) na kung saan God begets him “daw”…

The meaning of "Son of God" is not literal but metaphorical. It can be anyone who is beloved by God. Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48).

Alam niyo naman po siguro na marami pong mga na mentioned sa Bible na “Son of God” di po ba?nabasa niyo naman ung mga paskil ko sa kabilang thread na ang starter eh si Jeff….

Iwan po muna natin yan..

-----------
Tatanungin ko po kayo, aside from the verses in the Bible na nagsasabing “Son of God” si Jesus (peace be upon him) ano po ba ang makapagpapatunay na anak po siya ng Diyos? (please wag niyo po munang gamitin ung mga “Son of God” verses sa Bible ha)




Yes, ask questions. But do not say to us that our bible is full of doubts, for then it would be as unfair as when we would say to you that your Quran is fall of garbage.

I can prove that the Bible hindi lang full of doubts but full of errors…but can you prove na ang Qur’an eh full of garbage?



Just do what you need to do here. It is your duty to substantiate your adverse accusations about Christian teachings. And better do it satisfactorily and well.

Can I rephrase my question here?
Ganito:
Pwde po ba nating suriin ang mga ebanghelyo ni Pablo kung ito ba ay katuruan ni Jesus(pbuh)?
Like this:
Karamihan ay naniniwala sa turo Pablo, na ito ang kanilang sinusunod at hindi si Hesus na ipinadala ng Diyos kundi ibang Hesus na nilikha ni Pablo.
Inamin ito ni Pablo, hindi ito isang pagbibintang, sa sulat niya kay

Timoteo kanyang sinabi:

"alalahanin mo si Hesukristo na muling nabuhay sa mga patay, sa binhi ni
David, ayon sa aking ebanghelyo." (2 Timoteo 2:8)

Higit pang ipinagdiinan ni Pablo na iba ang kanyang ebanghelyo, at ito ay
isinulat naman niya sa mga taga Galacia na ganito ang kanyang winika:


"Datapuwa't kahimat kami, o isang anghel na mula sa langit ang mangaral
sa inyo ng anumang ebanghelyo na iba sa aming ipinangangaral, ay
matakuwil" (Galacia1:8)

"Sapagkat aking ipinatatalastas sa inyo, mga kapatid, tungkol sa
ebanghelyo na aking ipinangangaral, na ito ay hindi ayon sa tao, sapagkat
hindi ko tinanggap ito sa tao, ni itinuro man sa akin, kundi aking
tinanggap sa pamamagitan ng pahayag ni Hesukristo. (bersikulo 16) . . .

Pagdakay hindi ako sumangguni sa laman at sa dugo; . . . ni inahon ko
man sa Jerusalem silang apostol na nangauna sa akin . . ." (Galacia
1:11-12, 16-17)

Inamin dito ni Pablo ng may pagyayabang na ang ebanghelyong kanyang
ipinangangaral ay hindi niya natutuhan sa labing-isang alagad ni Hesus.
Ating pansinin kung gaano katalino si Pablo sa paglilihis ng tunay na aral
ni Hesus; sa mga taga Galacia ay kanyang ipinagyabang ang ganito:

"sapagkat ang naghanda kay Pedro sa pagka-apostol sa pagtutuli ay
naghanda rin naman sa akin sa pagka-apostol sa mga hentil." (Galacia
2:6)

"Datapuwa't ang mga wari'y may dangal ng kaunti (maging anoman sila,
ay walang anoman sa akin, ang Diyos ay hindi tumatanggap ng anyo
ninoman). Silang may dangal, sinasabi ko, ay hindi nagbahagi sa akin ng
anoman: . . .kundi bagkos ng makita nila na sa akin ay ipinagkatiwala ang
ebanghelyo ng di pagtutuli, gaya rin naman kay Pedro ng ebanghelyo ng
pagtutuli." (Galacia 2:8)


Sa mga talatang nabanggit ay nais ipagpilitan ni Pablo na ang tinanggap
niyang ebanghelyo ay kaiba sa ebanghel

justme
06-27-2008, 01:31 PM
It seems mare that entirely you did not read the whole context of the BIBLE. Or you read it but not in open mind. I suggest you need to read it by context and try to understand verse by verse. All you seek for an answers are there mare.

Many Christian scholars admitted that the Bible have many errors....then how can you convince me to this?

how can i trust a "word of god" if it contains errors? sige nga....:)

justme
06-27-2008, 01:45 PM
If God had chosen the jews as his chosen people, then why would he reveal His words to the arabs which is a gentile nation? I just don't get it...

Hi echo101,

Can I ask before I answer... What is with a Gentile nation na hindi ninyo matanggap?

kasi para pong nandidiri kayo sa Gentiles...racist po ba kayo?

Before I answer anong gusto niyong i support ko ang Bible ba o ang Qur'an ? (But I guess mas prefer ninyo ang Bible:rolleyes:)

At kung sakaling i support ko ang Bible ninyo...tatanggapin mo ba ang sagot ko?:)

Jeff
06-28-2008, 01:03 PM
You know what Mare, before you enter into combat you should be prepared of what you are going to answer, equip yourself the full knowledge about bible. May I ask you how many books are there in a bible? NOw you are questioning the sacredness of the bible and then you are challenging us if the contents of the bible are the words of God. It seems you are not really reading it. You dont even know the purpose of each of book in the bible. Para kalang nag fishing expedition. Don't ask where in the bible, instead find it by yourself and interpret it according to you understanding if you really read it. Mangyayari nyan mapapahiya ka lang.

We know you are getting ISLAM infos from other website then you bring it here in the forum, that is not good. Study ISLAM by your heart and share it not copy it from else where just for the sake of making it an issue. Sorry Mare kaso di ko na nagustohan ang stilo mo. Ang relihiyon ay di dapat pag debatihan yan, wag kang mamuna kung hindi ka rin pupunahin. Just continue reading your quoran and learned it then share with us with out comparing who is better and who is not. Ang mga libro na yan ay tama, ang problema ay sa nagbabasa kung paano nya hinimay. Remember few knowledge is dangerous.

justme
06-28-2008, 02:19 PM
You know what Mare, before you enter into combat you should be prepared of what you are going to answer, equip yourself the full knowledge about bible. May I ask you how many books are there in a bible? NOw you are questioning the sacredness of the bible and then you are challenging us if the contents of the bible are the words of God. It seems you are not really reading it. You dont even know the purpose of each of book in the bible. Para kalang nag fishing expedition. Don't ask where in the bible, instead find it by yourself and interpret it according to you understanding if you really read it. Mangyayari nyan mapapahiya ka lang.

We know you are getting ISLAM infos from other website then you bring it here in the forum, that is not good. Study ISLAM by your heart and share it not copy it from else where just for the sake of making it an issue. Sorry Mare kaso di ko na nagustohan ang stilo mo. Ang relihiyon ay di dapat pag debatihan yan, wag kang mamuna kung hindi ka rin pupunahin. Just continue reading your quoran and learned it then share with us with out comparing who is better and who is not. Ang mga libro na yan ay tama, ang problema ay sa nagbabasa kung paano nya hinimay. Remember few knowledge is dangerous.

there are 73 books..sa ngaun tinaggal ung 7 books...

If you're bringing infos from other site and you put it here..like news, articles etc...pinagbabawalan ko po ba kayo...bakit niyo po ako pinagbabawalan?

Si Mr. acpatagnan nagdadala ng mga infos dito about Ayn Rand...(i guess he's an atheist) pinagbabawalan niyo din po ba siya?

Defensive po yata kayo mang Jeff...

tawa muna ako :laugh:

agta
06-28-2008, 06:11 PM
Will you agree then that if it’s the Word of God it should not contain errors?
Another observation lang po:
Christians themselves label their Gospels as — "The Gospel according to St. Matthew", "The Gospel according to St. Mark", "The Gospel according to St. Luke" and "The Gospel according to St. John". Why is it there is NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS (peace be upon him)?
Errors, justme, are committed by men. The individuals that God choses to write the message that He wants to convey are simply men, subject to their individual and cultural limitations. They express in writing the message that God wants them to convey, but they do it according to their individual limitations being men like us.
There is no GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS because Jesus never wrote a gospel. That is a fact which we have to surrender to. He Himself is the gospel.




[COLOR="Blue"]Alam niyo po, di ba sabi niyo 3 in 1 sila…papaano po naging 1 po yan jaan…let’s picture it out ha…the father is in heaven == 1 god yan ha…Jesus falling with his face to the ground, prayed to the father ==(according sa inyo god din si Jesus diba so) another 1 God yan ha.. …ilan po ba yang nanjan? Isa lang po ba yan? Miski siguro 5 years malalaman na dalawa yang nanjan…

We have to accept the fact revealed in the bible, that Jesus is true God and true man. No man can come to God by himself alone, for "corruptible has no place with incorruptible." Man needs a "bridge" to connect him from where he is to God. Therefore, the "bridge" must be human in order to be connected to man. But the "bridge" has also to be Divine in order to be connected to God.

When Jesus prayed to the Father, he was acting in his human nature to show to man the example of how humans should approach God.

Tama ka, ang 5 years old ay mag conclude na there are dalawa ang nanjan It is our duty to help the 5 years old to understand the truth of it all.

echo101
06-28-2008, 06:25 PM
Errors, justme, are committed by men. The individuals that God choses to write the message that He wants to convey are simply men, subject to their individual and cultural limitations. They express in writing the message that God wants them to convey, but they do it according to their individual limitations being men like us.
There is no GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS because Jesus never wrote a gospel. That is a fact which we have to surrender to. He Himself is the gospel.

We have to accept the fact revealed in the bible, that Jesus is true God and true man. No man can come to God by himself alone, for "corruptible has no place with incorruptible." Man needs a "bridge" to connect him from where he is to God. Therefore, the "bridge" must be human in order to be connected to man. But the "bridge" has also to be Divine in order to be connected to God.

When Jesus prayed to the Father, he was acting in his human nature to show to man the example of how humans should approach God.

Tama ka, ang 5 years old ay mag conclude na there are dalawa ang nanjan It is our duty to help the 5 years old to understand the truth of it all.

AMEN!

Jesus is not a prophet, not even a messenger.. He himself is the Prophecy, He himself is the Message, He himself is the Gospel.. That is why never syang nagsulat gaya ng isang prophet or messenger, coz He is not one of them, Sya pa nga ang isinusulat! He is He.. as what the Father said, "I am what I am"

agta
06-28-2008, 08:46 PM
AMEN!

Jesus is not a prophet, not even a messenger.. He himself is the Prophecy, He himself is the Message, He himself is the Gospel.. That is why never syang nagsulat gaya ng isang prophet or messenger, coz He is not one of them, Sya pa nga ang isinusulat! He is He.. as what the Father said, "I am what I am"
echo101, why did you say that Jesus is not a prophet?

echo101
06-30-2008, 09:58 AM
echo101, why did you say that Jesus is not a prophet?

because he is more than a prophet.. as simple as that...

Philippians 2:6-7

6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.

7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,

Isang beses lng Syang nagpakababa sa level ng tao, and now he is back to His original being, and raised up on high.. tapos na ang pagiging tao nya.. And He will not return as a human (in flesh) but in His divine glory and as the King of kings and Lord of lords...

lets not lower him back to the level of men..

justme
06-30-2008, 12:04 PM
AMEN!

Jesus is not a prophet, not even a messenger.. He himself is the Prophecy, He himself is the Message, He himself is the Gospel.. That is why never syang nagsulat gaya ng isang prophet or messenger, coz He is not one of them, Sya pa nga ang isinusulat! He is He.. as what the Father said, "I am what I am"

Hi echo101

Read this:

WORDS

"Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me." [John 7:16]

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." [John 14:24]

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." [John 12:49]

WILL

"Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work." [John 4:34]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me." [John 6:38]

"saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." [Luke 22:42]

POWER

" I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master,
nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." [John 13:16]

"You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you
loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [John 14:28]

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me." [ John 8:42]

"To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for
those for whom it has been prepared by my Father" [Matthew 20:23]


KNOWLEDGE

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mr 13:32]

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only." [Mt 24:36]

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me" [John 7:16]

STATUS

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." [Mt 7:21]

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of
me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. [John 5:37]

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]

"And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

Some Christians, (not all) claim that Jesus _implied_ that he was God, from the above verses, we see that Jesus denied being God, it now leaves the Christians who believe Jesus is God to provide just one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God" there is no such verse, the God of Abraham in the Old Testament stated "I am God" over 200 times, yet oddly Jesus never uttered those three words once in the Gospel, so we see from the many quotes above, that the House did not belong to Jesus, it belonged to the One who Sent him.

Now tell me echo101 are you reading your Bible?

by the way what can you say about my post #19?

justme
06-30-2008, 12:10 PM
For Mam Agta:

continuation of my post #17

"Ang labingdalawang ito'y sinugo ni Hesus, at sila'y pinagbilinan, na
sinasabi, huwag kayong magsitungo sa alin mang daan ng mga hentil, at
huwag kayong magsipasok sa alin mang bayan ng mga taga Samaria:
kundi bagkos magsiparoon kayo sa mga tupang nangawaglit sa bahay ni
Israel." (Mateo 10:5-6)

Napakaliwanagna si Pablo lamang ang lumikha ng sarili niyang
ebanghelyo, ang ebanghelyo sa mga hentil o hindi mga tuli, at upang
maging katangap-tangap ang kanyang kasinungalingan ay idinagdag pa
niya ang ebanghelyo ng kamatayan ni Hesus sa krus, ang ebanghelyo ng
pagkabuhay na mag-uli, at ang ebanghelyo ng pagbabayad sa kasalanang
mana ng tao.

Ito'y ebanghelyo lamang ni Pablo at hindi ebanghelyo ng 12
apostoles, lalo't hindi ebanghelyo ni Hesus, isang napakalaking kalapastanganan sa Diyos. Isang nag-aanyong maamong tupa,
nagbabalatkayong isang alagad ni Hesus.



That is if you were Jesus. Unfortunately, you are not Jesus.

Di nga ako si Jesus…pero sinabi ba ni Jesus na apostol niya si Pablo? Kung sasabihin ni Eli Soriano na apostol siya ni Jesus maniniwala po ba kayo?



My goodness, it seems to me you did not read my post #6 in this thread! I do believe in original sin, and I even explained it in post#6!

Post #6 (balikan ko lang na miss ko yata)
Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another.

Agree po ako sa sinabi niyong “What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another” in connection po sa original sin… paano ba nagka original sin ang tao according po sa inyong paniniwala?

Post #6
Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.

Sa paraan po ng pagpakao kay Kristo sa krus para iligtas ang kasalanan ng tao? Kung gayon, what’s the use of praying, worshiping God if naialay na pala si Kristo bilang kabayaran sa kasalanan ng sangkatauhan?

Matanong ko lang…does faith alone can save you?



The bible affirms that Jesus was crucified. And you knew right from the start that I do not oppose what is affirmed or revealed in the bible.

Jesus was crucified to fulfill what was written of Him, so that those who believe in Him may have life everlasting. Therefore, although salvation is a gift, one has to believe and abide in His words in order to receive God's generous gift.

By the way,

1. Aware po ba si Kristo na dapat siyang ma crucified to save mankind?
2. Willing po ba si Kristo na ma crucified to save mankind?

Jeff
06-30-2008, 01:40 PM
there are 73 books..sa ngaun tinaggal ung 7 books...

If you're bringing infos from other site and you put it here..like news, articles etc...pinagbabawalan ko po ba kayo...bakit niyo po ako pinagbabawalan?

Si Mr. acpatagnan nagdadala ng mga infos dito about Ayn Rand...(i guess he's an atheist) pinagbabawalan niyo din po ba siya?

Defensive po yata kayo mang Jeff...

tawa muna ako :laugh:

Siguro nag tanong ka nanaman dun sa website na pinag kunan mo ng info. di ako believe na alam mo yan, sorry ha.

Si ACPATAGNAN ay sinabihan na atheist sya. Bakit alam mo ba ang ibig sabihin ng atheist? in your own words ano pala ang atheist sigi nga, palibahasa kasi nag tatanong ka kaagad sa mga ka alyado mo sa kabila eh. Kaya paniniwala mo tungkol sa Diyos puro hearsays lang.

Jeff
06-30-2008, 01:42 PM
For Mam Agta:

continuation of my post #17

"Ang labingdalawang ito'y sinugo ni Hesus, at sila'y pinagbilinan, na
sinasabi, huwag kayong magsitungo sa alin mang daan ng mga hentil, at
huwag kayong magsipasok sa alin mang bayan ng mga taga Samaria:
kundi bagkos magsiparoon kayo sa mga tupang nangawaglit sa bahay ni
Israel." (Mateo 10:5-6)

Napakaliwanagna si Pablo lamang ang lumikha ng sarili niyang
ebanghelyo, ang ebanghelyo sa mga hentil o hindi mga tuli, at upang
maging katangap-tangap ang kanyang kasinungalingan ay idinagdag pa
niya ang ebanghelyo ng kamatayan ni Hesus sa krus, ang ebanghelyo ng
pagkabuhay na mag-uli, at ang ebanghelyo ng pagbabayad sa kasalanang
mana ng tao.

Ito'y ebanghelyo lamang ni Pablo at hindi ebanghelyo ng 12
apostoles, lalo't hindi ebanghelyo ni Hesus, isang napakalaking kalapastanganan sa Diyos. Isang nag-aanyong maamong tupa,
nagbabalatkayong isang alagad ni Hesus.



Di nga ako si Jesus…pero sinabi ba ni Jesus na apostol niya si Pablo? Kung sasabihin ni Eli Soriano na apostol siya ni Jesus maniniwala po ba kayo?



Post #6 (balikan ko lang na miss ko yata)
Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another.

Agree po ako sa sinabi niyong “What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another” in connection po sa original sin… paano ba nagka original sin ang tao according po sa inyong paniniwala?

Post #6
Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.

Sa paraan po ng pagpakao kay Kristo sa krus para iligtas ang kasalanan ng tao? Kung gayon, what’s the use of praying, worshiping God if naialay na pala si Kristo bilang kabayaran sa kasalanan ng sangkatauhan?

Matanong ko lang…does faith alone can save you?



By the way,

1. Aware po ba si Kristo na dapat siyang ma crucified to save mankind?
2. Willing po ba si Kristo na ma crucified to save mankind?
Sa mga tanong mo halata hindi ka nag babasa ng biblia, nako napaka elementary ng mga tanong buti pa kindergarten sayo alam kung sino si Jesus.
Mag basa kanaman kay sa lagi ka nagtatanong aling justme.

Jeff
06-30-2008, 01:49 PM
because he is more than a prophet.. as simple as that...

Philippians 2:6-7

6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.

7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,

Isang beses lng Syang nagpakababa sa level ng tao, and now he is back to His original being, and raised up on high.. tapos na ang pagiging tao nya.. And He will not return as a human (in flesh) but in His divine glory and as the King of kings and Lord of lords...

lets not lower him back to the level of men..

He is not a prophet he came to the world to save mankind to follow the prophesy of the prophets before him. He is our savior, prophets are not saviors but messengers of GOD. Iba ang mensahero kay sa nagliligtas ng tao sa kasalanan.

Jeff
06-30-2008, 02:05 PM
Hi echo101

Read this:

WORDS

"Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me." [John 7:16]

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." [John 14:24]

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." [John 12:49]

WILL

"Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work." [John 4:34]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me." [John 6:38]

"saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." [Luke 22:42]

POWER

" I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master,
nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." [John 13:16]

"You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you
loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [John 14:28]

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me." [ John 8:42]

"To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for
those for whom it has been prepared by my Father" [Matthew 20:23]


KNOWLEDGE

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mr 13:32]

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only." [Mt 24:36]

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who
sent me" [John 7:16]

STATUS

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." [Mt 7:21]

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of
me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. [John 5:37]

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]

"And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

Some Christians, (not all) claim that Jesus _implied_ that he was God, from the above verses, we see that Jesus denied being God, it now leaves the Christians who believe Jesus is God to provide just one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God" there is no such verse, the God of Abraham in the Old Testament stated "I am God" over 200 times, yet oddly Jesus never uttered those three words once in the Gospel, so we see from the many quotes above, that the House did not belong to Jesus, it belonged to the One who Sent him.

Now tell me echo101 are you reading your Bible?

by the way what can you say about my post #19?

Ay naku maring justme, hindi kana naman nag basa siguro hiram mo lang ito sa iba. Tungkol sa sinabi mo sa John 7:16 ang mahirap sayo di mo itinoloy hanggang 18. Basahin mo kasi o ito:

Sa tagalog ha para maintindihan mo,

Joh 7:16 Sinagot nga nila ni Jesus, at sinabi, Ang turo ko ay hindi akin, kundi doon sa nagsugo sa akin.
Joh 7:17 Kung ang sinomang tao ay nagiibig gumawa ng kaniyang kalooban, ay makikilala niya ang turo, kung ito'y sa Dios, o kung ako'y nagsasalita na mula sa aking sarili.
Joh 7:18 Ang nagsasalita ng sa ganang kaniyang sarili'y humahanap ng kaniyang sariling kaluwalhatian: datapuwa't ang humahanap ng kaluwalhatian niyaong sa kaniya'y nagsugo, ang gayon ay totoo, at sa kaniya'y walang kalikuan.
Ganito yan, hindi nag yabang si Jesus o nag pasikat sa tao, ang sabi nya lahat na galing sa kanya ay galing sa Diyos Ama, hindi siya nag iimbento gaya sayo. Lahat ng mga turo nya galing sa ama niya. Dipa ikaw may ama ka? pag tinuruan ka ng tama natural yan din ang ituro mo sa iba diba? O ano problema dun? Hindi siya gumagawa ng sarili nyang version, lahat ay galing sa AMA nya kahit buhay nya galing sa AMA. Because the father is fountain of all source o baka pahanap mo nanaman yan sa Biblia ikaw na maghanap ha. Kapag iniba mo na ang aral mali mali na ang resulta.

justme
06-30-2008, 02:06 PM
Siguro nag tanong ka nanaman dun sa website na pinag kunan mo ng info. di ako believe na alam mo yan, sorry ha.

Si ACPATAGNAN ay sinabihan na atheist sya. Bakit alam mo ba ang ibig sabihin ng atheist? in your own words ano pala ang atheist sigi nga, palibahasa kasi nag tatanong ka kaagad sa mga ka alyado mo sa kabila eh. Kaya paniniwala mo tungkol sa Diyos puro hearsays lang.

Hi Mang Jeff,

Ano po ba ang tingin ninyo sa akin Mang Jeff, di marunong mag-aral? Bakit po parang sa tono ng pananalita ninyo eh para akong walang alam. Di po tama yan Mang Jeff.

Sa totoo lang po Comparative studies, Islamic Studies at Arabic language pinag aaralan ko ngaun...

Dahil po ba sa hindi masyadong intellectual pinopost ko dito before kaya ninyo yan nasabi?

Ang Atheist sa aking pagkakaintindi ay hindi naniniwalang may Diyos o hindi naniniwalang nag eexist ang Diyos. Sa inyo po ba anong ibig sabihin ng atheist?

Ano pong hearsay Mang Jeff...asan po ang source mo dito...

Naniniwala akong ISA lang ang Diyos na lumalang ng langit at lupa...hearsay po ba yan Mang Jeff?

Bakit defensive po kayo Mang Jeff?

Nakakaawa po kayo mang Jeff kasi mukhang napipikon na kayo...

Sige po...Smile muna :)

echo101
06-30-2008, 02:11 PM
Hi echo101,

Can I ask before I answer... What is with a Gentile nation na hindi ninyo matanggap?

kasi para pong nandidiri kayo sa Gentiles...racist po ba kayo?


Ayan, misunderstood na nman.. Simple lng nman.. Chosen people nya ang Israel, the jews... At thru this chosen nation nya isinakatuparan ang mga plans nya..

Hindi ko pinandidirihan ang mga gentiles, hello, gentile din ako.. At hindi ako racist..

Kinu-question ko lng kung bakit naman sa isang arabong si muhamad ang napili ng Diyos na pagbigyan ng kanyang salita (if ever nga na word of God un). Isang bagong gospel na completely salungat sa scriptures na mas nauna nang pinanghahawakan ng mga Jews, ng mga mismong chosen people na ni God.. Mas kahina-hinala nman di hamak ang account ni muhamad, mas worthy syang paghinalaan ng pagiging "self-proclaimed" prophet kesa kay Paul...


Before I answer anong gusto niyong i support ko ang Bible ba o ang Qur'an ? (But I guess mas prefer ninyo ang Bible:rolleyes:)

At kung sakaling i support ko ang Bible ninyo...tatanggapin mo ba ang sagot ko?:)

Syempre sa point na to, hindi... Kc nakita ko na kung gaano kabaluktot ang interpretation mu sa bible...

justme
06-30-2008, 02:13 PM
Ay naku maring justme, hindi kana naman nag basa siguro hiram mo lang ito sa iba. Tungkol sa sinabi mo sa John 7:16 ang mahirap sayo di mo itinoloy hanggang 18. Basahin mo kasi o ito:

Sa tagalog ha para maintindihan mo,

Joh 7:16 Sinagot nga nila ni Jesus, at sinabi, Ang turo ko ay hindi akin, kundi doon sa nagsugo sa akin.
Joh 7:17 Kung ang sinomang tao ay nagiibig gumawa ng kaniyang kalooban, ay makikilala niya ang turo, kung ito'y sa Dios, o kung ako'y nagsasalita na mula sa aking sarili.
Joh 7:18 Ang nagsasalita ng sa ganang kaniyang sarili'y humahanap ng kaniyang sariling kaluwalhatian: datapuwa't ang humahanap ng kaluwalhatian niyaong sa kaniya'y nagsugo, ang gayon ay totoo, at sa kaniya'y walang kalikuan.
Ganito yan, hindi nag yabang si Jesus o nag pasikat sa tao, ang sabi nya lahat na galing sa kanya ay galing sa Diyos Ama, hindi siya nag iimbento gaya sayo. Lahat ng mga turo nya galing sa ama niya. Dipa ikaw may ama ka? pag tinuruan ka ng tama natural yan din ang ituro mo sa iba diba? O ano problema dun? Hindi siya gumagawa ng sarili nyang version, lahat ay galing sa AMA nya kahit buhay nya galing sa AMA. Because the father is fountain of all source o baka pahanap mo nanaman yan sa Biblia ikaw na maghanap ha. Kapag iniba mo na ang aral mali mali na ang resulta.


Hi Mang Jeff,

Could you please provide even just one single exact verse in the Bible in which Jesus says "I AM GOD"...

Yan na lang ho sagutin ninyo..pag nasagot po ninyo yan...babalik ako sa Kristiyanismo....

Smile muna :)

justme
06-30-2008, 02:25 PM
Ayan, misunderstood na nman.. Simple lng nman.. Chosen people nya ang Israel, the jews... At thru this chosen nation nya isinakatuparan ang mga plans nya..

Hindi ko pinandidirihan ang mga gentiles, hello, gentile din ako.. At hindi ako racist..

Hi echo101,

Kaya nga ako ng tanong di ba kasi gusto kong i clarify...hindi yan misunderstood..

So, Israel ang chosen nation ng God di ba...kasali po ba jan ang Chinese, Filipinos, Romans, Greeks, and other nationalities? Pakisagot po...



Kinu-question ko lng kung bakit naman sa isang arabong si muhamad ang napili ng Diyos na pagbigyan ng kanyang salita (if ever nga na word of God un). Isang bagong gospel na completely salungat sa scriptures na mas nauna nang pinanghahawakan ng mga Jews, ng mga mismong chosen people na ni God.. Mas kahina-hinala nman di hamak ang account ni muhamad, mas worthy syang paghinalaan ng pagiging "self-proclaimed" prophet kesa kay Paul...

Matanong ko lang nakapag aral na po ba kayo ng relihiyong ISLAM? Alam niyo po ba ang mga katuruan nito para masabi mong salungat ang katuruan sa ISLAM sa previous na scriptures na ipinadala sa mga naunang Propeta...

Kung hindi pa magsaliksik kayo echo101 nakakaawa ka lumalabas kang walang alam sa ISLAM...feeling mo marami kang alam...

Nabasa mo ba ung post#17 ko basahin mo dun ang mga salungat na ebanghelyo ni Pablo sa katuruan ni Jesus...



Syempre sa point na to, hindi... Kc nakita ko na kung gaano kabaluktot ang interpretation mu sa bible...

So ayaw mong ang i support ko eh ung sarili mong Bibliya? Bakit? Kasi ayaw mong mabasa ang katibayan ko...

So ibig po bang sabihin nito eh hindi kayo naniniwala sa ibang bersosa Bibliya kung saka sakaling ipaskil ko dito ang katibayan?


Eto sagutin mo rin:

Could you please provide even just one single exact verse in the Bible in which Jesus says "I AM GOD"...

Sige..smile muna :)

echo101
06-30-2008, 02:59 PM
Hi Mang Jeff,

Could you please provide even just one single exact verse in the Bible in which Jesus says "I AM GOD"...

Yan na lang ho sagutin ninyo..pag nasagot po ninyo yan...babalik ako sa Kristiyanismo....

Smile muna :)

Syempre walang sinabi ng ganyan si Jesus at that time.. Uulitin ko ulit.. ndi nya pedeng sabihin na Siya ang Diyos that time kc nasa anyong tao pa sya nun.. Pansinin mo sa last book ng bible, sa revelations, at that time inakyat na sa langit si Jesus, Jesus was back to His true form and to his devine being at that time.. dun na nya dinideclare na Sya ang Alpha and Omega, the beginning ang the end... Never nyang sinabi un nung nasa lupa pa sya..

Ganto lang yan eh.. Naalala mu ung verse sa Philippians 2:6-7? ihahalimbawa ko nlng sa isang tao..

Kung ikaw ay isa presendente ng sarili mong company.. at isang araw buong puso kang nagdecide na isang linggo kang baba sa pwesto mo at susubukang maging isang kargador gaya ng isa sa mga empleyado mu. Yung talagang huhubarin mo ang pagkapresidente, bibitiwan ang authority at power, at magpailalim sa sarili mong mga rules and regulations.. At by the time na nkasuot kna ng pangkargador na damit, at nasa ibabang pwesto kna. Tapos ginawan ka ng masama ng isang kapwa mo trabahador na hindi kilala ang tunay mong pagkatao, kung ikaw ay tlagang seryoso sa desisyon mo the moment na bumaba ka, mkatarungan ba na ikatwiran mo pa ang pagiging boss o presidente mo at sabihin sa kanya "Ako ang boss ng company na to", eh at that moment isa ka na lamang hamak na gargador.. nagdecide kang bumaba sa pwesto tpos on the process patuloy mong ifina-front ang pagka-boss mo... asan ang prinsipyo at paninindigan mo dun? errrrr.. Diba nga ang sasabihin pa dapat nung presidente na naging kargador eh "Lagot ka sa boss natin, isusumbong kita sa presidente ng company na to (w/c is sya din)"

At pagkatapos ng isang linggo, balik na ulit sya sa pagkaboss, saka siya ngaun babalik dun sa pwesto ng mga kargador, suot na ang kanyang damit-presidente w/ matching necktie pa and back in his true form, pra komprontahin ung isang kargador na umagrabyado sa kanya.. At ska nya sasabihin na siya ang may-ari at boss ng company.

Dapat alam ng presidente na ndi nya pedeng ikatwiran ang pagka-presidente nya while he is in the form of a kargador..

Nagets mu ba? (wish ko lng..)

That is why never sinabi ni Jesus na Siya si God at the time na nasa lupa pa Siya..

Jeff
06-30-2008, 03:17 PM
Si Jesus ay di minsan nagyabang na siya ay anak ng DIYOS, nagpakumbaba at nagkatawang tao siya. He humbled himself, sinakripisyo nya ang kanyang sarili upang mailigtas ka justme sa galit ng AMA, ibinigay nya ang kanyang buhay inangkin nya lahat para ikaw justme at ako ay mailigtas sa tiyak na impyerno. Kung hindi nya ginawa yun matagal na tayong patay hindi sa katawan kung di sa ispirito. Ang kasalanan kung hindi kay Hesus ay yari kana kay AMA, hindi nya ginawa yun at binigyan tayo ng chance upang magbago sa pamamagitan ni Hesus. Jesus is the way to GOD, with out JESUS we are dead in spirit. Dapat justme magpasalamat ka kay Jesus, isinalba ka nya sa kasalanan mo, tinubos ka nya sa galit ng AMA. Wala tayong ipagmamayabang.

Jeff
06-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Hi echo101,

Kaya nga ako ng tanong di ba kasi gusto kong i clarify...hindi yan misunderstood..

So, Israel ang chosen nation ng God di ba...kasali po ba jan ang Chinese, Filipinos, Romans, Greeks, and other nationalities? Pakisagot po...



Matanong ko lang nakapag aral na po ba kayo ng relihiyong ISLAM? Alam niyo po ba ang mga katuruan nito para masabi mong salungat ang katuruan sa ISLAM sa previous na scriptures na ipinadala sa mga naunang Propeta...

Kung hindi pa magsaliksik kayo echo101 nakakaawa ka lumalabas kang walang alam sa ISLAM...feeling mo marami kang alam...

Nabasa mo ba ung post#17 ko basahin mo dun ang mga salungat na ebanghelyo ni Pablo sa katuruan ni Jesus...



So ayaw mong ang i support ko eh ung sarili mong Bibliya? Bakit? Kasi ayaw mong mabasa ang katibayan ko...

So ibig po bang sabihin nito eh hindi kayo naniniwala sa ibang bersosa Bibliya kung saka sakaling ipaskil ko dito ang katibayan?


Eto sagutin mo rin:

Could you please provide even just one single exact verse in the Bible in which Jesus says "I AM GOD"...

Sige..smile muna :)

Kung ikaw justme ay si Jesus, sasabihin mo kaya sa mga tao na ikaw ay DIYOS?

Hindi sya nagpunta sa sanlibutan para mag yabang, isa ang kanyang pakay ang iligtas ka justme, ako tayo. Hindi sya gaya ng tao na mayabang, kaunting aral nasasagap mayabang na.

justme
06-30-2008, 03:51 PM
Syempre walang sinabi ng ganyan si Jesus at that time.. Uulitin ko ulit.. ndi nya pedeng sabihin na Siya ang Diyos that time kc nasa anyong tao pa sya nun.. Pansinin mo sa last book ng bible, sa revelations, at that time inakyat na sa langit si Jesus, Jesus was back to His true form and to his devine being at that time.. dun na nya dinideclare na Sya ang Alpha and Omega, the beginning ang the end... Never nyang sinabi un nung nasa lupa pa sya..

Ganto lang yan eh.. Naalala mu ung verse sa Philippians 2:6-7? ihahalimbawa ko nlng sa isang tao..

Kung ikaw ay isa presendente ng sarili mong company.. at isang araw buong puso kang nagdecide na isang linggo kang baba sa pwesto mo at susubukang maging isang kargador gaya ng isa sa mga empleyado mu. Yung talagang huhubarin mo ang pagkapresidente, bibitiwan ang authority at power, at magpailalim sa sarili mong mga rules and regulations.. At by the time na nkasuot kna ng pangkargador na damit, at nasa ibabang pwesto kna. Tapos ginawan ka ng masama ng isang kapwa mo trabahador na hindi kilala ang tunay mong pagkatao, kung ikaw ay tlagang seryoso sa desisyon mo the moment na bumaba ka, mkatarungan ba na ikatwiran mo pa ang pagiging boss o presidente mo at sabihin sa kanya "Ako ang boss ng company na to", eh at that moment isa ka na lamang hamak na gargador.. nagdecide kang bumaba sa pwesto tpos on the process patuloy mong ifina-front ang pagka-boss mo... asan ang prinsipyo at paninindigan mo dun? errrrr.. Diba nga ang sasabihin pa dapat nung presidente na naging kargador eh "Lagot ka sa boss natin, isusumbong kita sa presidente ng company na to (w/c is sya din)"

At pagkatapos ng isang linggo, balik na ulit sya sa pagkaboss, saka siya ngaun babalik dun sa pwesto ng mga kargador, suot na ang kanyang damit-presidente w/ matching necktie pa and back in his true form, pra komprontahin ung isang kargador na umagrabyado sa kanya.. At ska nya sasabihin na siya ang may-ari at boss ng company.

Dapat alam ng presidente na ndi nya pedeng ikatwiran ang pagka-presidente nya while he is in the form of a kargador..

Nagets mu ba? (wish ko lng..)

That is why never sinabi ni Jesus na Siya si God at the time na nasa lupa pa Siya..

Hi echo101,

Bakit naman hindi dahil ba talagang hindi siya Diyos?

Inamin niyo na po sa akin na walang sinabi si Jesus na: "AKO AY DIYOS" at wala po kayong napatunayan at naipakitang Berso sa Bibliya kundi puro sarili niyo lang interpretasyon na walang basehan sa Bibliya.

Salamat at nasabi niyo na ang dapat ninyong sabihin dito...tapos na usapan ko sa inyo...

Smile muna :)

Jeff
06-30-2008, 04:10 PM
Hi echo101,

Bakit naman hindi dahil ba talagang hindi siya Diyos?

Inamin niyo na po sa akin na walang sinabi si Jesus na: "AKO AY DIYOS" at wala po kayong napatunayan at naipakitang Berso sa Bibliya kundi puro sarili niyo lang interpretasyon na walang basehan sa Bibliya.

Salamat at nasabi niyo na ang dapat ninyong sabihin dito...tapos na usapan ko sa inyo...

Smile muna :)

Bakit mo gusto hahanapin na si JESUS ay may sabing DIYOS sya? I can't get your point. Of course he can't say that dahil hindi nya mission ang magsabi na sya ay DIYOS o anak ng DIYOS. He came for our soul, he came to save us. Bakit mo iniintriga si JESUS na gusto mo mahanap na diyos siya? Unang una hindi kailangan mag yabang, tao ang mag sabi kung ano sya, hindi sya gaya sa tao mayabang. Ang tunay na mayaman ay kailan man di na magyayabang na mayaman sya dahil naturales na sya ay talagang mayaman mulat sapol, hindi kagaya ng ibang tao kakayaman lang mayabang na yun ang fake na mayaman. Jesus is not a fake and never could be, hindi na nya kailangan ipagbunyi na anak sya ng DIYOS dahil naturales na sa kanaya yun, baka ikaw kung may mag sabi na tunay kang anak ng diyos baka mag lupasay kana sa kayabangan.

Hamadash
06-30-2008, 04:18 PM
Hi gurl, im just confused why they called MOHAMMED the PROPHET? when mohammed did a prophecy and what is it? What is the name of your god aside from ALLAH coz i've heard they called it ISSA? is that right? I've seen Qu'ran but unfortunately i cant read it...

Jeff
06-30-2008, 04:19 PM
Hi echo101,

Bakit naman hindi dahil ba talagang hindi siya Diyos?

Inamin niyo na po sa akin na walang sinabi si Jesus na: "AKO AY DIYOS" at wala po kayong napatunayan at naipakitang Berso sa Bibliya kundi puro sarili niyo lang interpretasyon na walang basehan sa Bibliya.

Salamat at nasabi niyo na ang dapat ninyong sabihin dito...tapos na usapan ko sa inyo...

Smile muna :)

I want you to understand this...

First of all, even if the phrase "Son of Man" is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of His deity. By becoming a man, Jesus did not cease being God. The incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly who he is on many occasions (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). But in addition to being divine, He was also human (see Philippians 2:6-8). He had two natures (divine and human) conjoined in one person.

Further, Scripture indicates that Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. In fact, it is highly revealing that the term "Son of Man" is used in Scripture in contexts of Christ's deity. For example, the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7). But as the "Son of Man," Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to earth as the "Son of Man" in clouds of glory to reign on earth (Matthew 26:63-64). In this passage, Jesus is citing Daniel 7:13 where the Messiah is described as the "Ancient of Days," a phrase used to indicate His deity (Daniel 7:9).

Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the "Son of God" (Matthew 26:63), He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the "Son of Man" who would come in power and great glory (verse 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase "Son of Man" to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

agta
06-30-2008, 07:03 PM
For Mam Agta:

continuation of my post #17

"Ang labingdalawang ito'y sinugo ni Hesus, at sila'y pinagbilinan, na
sinasabi, huwag kayong magsitungo sa alin mang daan ng mga hentil, at
huwag kayong magsipasok sa alin mang bayan ng mga taga Samaria:
kundi bagkos magsiparoon kayo sa mga tupang nangawaglit sa bahay ni
Israel." (Mateo 10:5-6)

Napakaliwanagna si Pablo lamang ang lumikha ng sarili niyang
ebanghelyo, ang ebanghelyo sa mga hentil o hindi mga tuli, at upang
maging katangap-tangap ang kanyang kasinungalingan ay idinagdag pa
niya ang ebanghelyo ng kamatayan ni Hesus sa krus, ang ebanghelyo ng
pagkabuhay na mag-uli, at ang ebanghelyo ng pagbabayad sa kasalanang
mana ng tao.

Ito'y ebanghelyo lamang ni Pablo at hindi ebanghelyo ng 12
apostoles, lalo't hindi ebanghelyo ni Hesus, isang napakalaking kalapastanganan sa Diyos. Isang nag-aanyong maamong tupa,
nagbabalatkayong isang alagad ni Hesus.[/COLOR]

Hindi ka man lang kinilabutan maghusga kay Pablo bilang "nag-aanyong maamong tupa, nagbabalatkayong isang alagad ni Hesus.":eek:
Peter said, "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter3:15-16)

You see! Peter himself, the first of the twelve Apostles, affirmed the writings of Paul, that they are with the wisdom that God gave him. You seem to consider yourself greater than Peter, huh?

As I said in my answer to your initial post here, let us take these one by one. Let us focus on Paul, the first person you want to malign here. Either you agree with the Apostle Peter and accept the wisdom of Paul's writings, or reject Paul, thereby rejecting also Peter. Which way are you, justme?

4everblue
06-30-2008, 07:38 PM
Ang relihiyon ay di dapat pag debatihan yan, wag kang mamuna kung hindi ka rin pupunahin. Just continue reading your quoran and learned it then share with us with out comparing who is better and who is not. Ang mga libro na yan ay tama, ang problema ay sa nagbabasa kung paano nya hinimay.

i agree with you...

Jeff
07-01-2008, 01:04 PM
i agree with you...

Nasa nag babasa yan kung paano nya maintindihan bawat paksa, bawat verses. Kailangan pag nag basa ka, wag ka agad defensive, ituloy tuloy mo basa hanggang mag liwanag ang lahat. Pag babasa sa biblia ay kailangan ng mahabang pasensya malayo ang kaibahan kung mag basa ka ng nobela. Ang libro na binabasa ay kumpleto naadyan lahat sundin mo nalang upang ikaw ay maligtas sa dagatdagatang apoy.

justme
07-01-2008, 07:22 PM
Hi gurl, im just confused why they called MOHAMMED the PROPHET? when mohammed did a prophecy and what is it? What is the name of your god aside from ALLAH coz i've heard they called it ISSA? is that right? I've seen Qu'ran but unfortunately i cant read it...

Mam Please read this:

Islam Guidance (http://www.biliranisland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2114)

By the way.. ISSA(arabic term) is Jesus(sala lahu alayhi wa salam)...He is a Prophet in Islam

justme
07-01-2008, 07:45 PM
Hindi ka man lang kinilabutan maghusga kay Pablo bilang "nag-aanyong maamong tupa, nagbabalatkayong isang alagad ni Hesus.":eek:
Peter said, "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter3:15-16)

You see! Peter himself, the first of the twelve Apostles, affirmed the writings of Paul, that they are with the wisdom that God gave him. You seem to consider yourself greater than Peter, huh?

As I said in my answer to your initial post here, let us take these one by one. Let us focus on Paul, the first person you want to malign here. Either you agree with the Apostle Peter and accept the wisdom of Paul's writings, or reject Paul, thereby rejecting also Peter. Which way are you, justme?

Ipakilala muna natin si Pablo.

Si Paul ay ikinakaila ng mga theologians at Iskolar sa kasaysayan, ang pagkasuklam sa kanya kung saan nagtuturo laban sa batas ng mga Hudyo at ang suporta niya ay ibinigay niya sa Emperador ng Roma, kung saan ay desperado siyang sirain ang Nazarene sect, ang unang tagasunod ng Jesus movement, known as The Way (Acts 9:2, 19:23) ang estilo niya ay parang Gnostic! ipinapatay niya ang mga tagasunod ni Kristo para makuha ang simpatiya ng Popea, ngunit ng siya ay mabigo ay nag-aklas at gumawa ng imbento na nagtuturo ang mga Kristiyano ng doktina at batas ng Hudyo. Ginawa niya ito para ma-convert niya ang mga Hentil kaya nagkunwari siyang Hentil, para naman makuha ang simpatiya ng Hudyo ay nagkunwari siyang Hudyo.

Basa sa talatang ito:

1 Corinthians 9:

19 Sapagka't bagaman ako ay malaya sa lahat ng mga tao, ay napaalipin ako sa lahat, upang ako'y makahikayat ng lalong marami.

20 At sa mga Judio, ako'y nagaring tulad sa Judio, upang mahikayat ko ang mga Judio; sa mga nasa ilalim ng kautusan ay gaya ng nasa ilalim ng kautusan, bagaman wala ako sa ilalim ng kautusan upang mahikayat ang mga nasa ilalim ng kautusan;

21 Sa mga walang kautusan, ay tulad sa walang kautusan, bagama't hindi ako walang kautusan sa Dios, kundi nasa ilalim ng kautusan ni Cristo, upang mahikayat ko ang mga walang kautusan.


Narito ang kontrahan sa kanyang turo mismo.


Romans 3:20 Sapagka't sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa ng kautusan ay walang laman na aariing-ganap sa paningin niya; sapagka't sa pamamagitan ng kautusan ay ang pagkakilala ng kasalanan

Taliwas dito


Romans 2:13 Sapagka't hindi ang mga tagapakinig ng kautusan ang siyang mga ganap sa harapan ng Dios, kundi ang nangagsisitalima sa kautusan ay aariing mga ganap;

agta
07-01-2008, 10:16 PM
Ipakilala muna natin si Pablo.

Si Paul ay ikinakaila ng mga theologians at Iskolar sa kasaysayan, ang pagkasuklam sa kanya kung saan nagtuturo laban sa batas ng mga Hudyo at ang suporta niya ay ibinigay niya sa Emperador ng Roma, kung saan ay desperado siyang sirain ang Nazarene sect, ang unang tagasunod ng Jesus movement, known as The Way (Acts 9:2, 19:23) ang estilo niya ay parang Gnostic! ipinapatay niya ang mga tagasunod ni Kristo para makuha ang simpatiya ng Popea, ngunit ng siya ay mabigo ay nag-aklas at gumawa ng imbento na nagtuturo ang mga Kristiyano ng doktina at batas ng Hudyo. Ginawa niya ito para ma-convert niya ang mga Hentil kaya nagkunwari siyang Hentil, para naman makuha ang simpatiya ng Hudyo ay nagkunwari siyang Hudyo.
Paulit-ulit kung binasa binigay mong talata, Acts 9:2, 19:23, at hindi ko nakita kahit anino ang sinasabi mong "desperado siyang sirain ang Nazarene sect". It seems you are imagining things. Better make a direct quote to support your allegation. Imagination is not fact.


Basa sa talatang ito:

1 Corinthians 9:

19 Sapagka't bagaman ako ay malaya sa lahat ng mga tao, ay napaalipin ako sa lahat, upang ako'y makahikayat ng lalong marami.

20 At sa mga Judio, ako'y nagaring tulad sa Judio, upang mahikayat ko ang mga Judio; sa mga nasa ilalim ng kautusan ay gaya ng nasa ilalim ng kautusan, bagaman wala ako sa ilalim ng kautusan upang mahikayat ang mga nasa ilalim ng kautusan;

21 Sa mga walang kautusan, ay tulad sa walang kautusan, bagama't hindi ako walang kautusan sa Dios, kundi nasa ilalim ng kautusan ni Cristo, upang mahikayat ko ang mga walang kautusan.

Style Soriano ah! He he he. Ano kaya ang nakita mong mali sa 1 Corinthians 9:19-21?


Narito ang kontrahan sa kanyang turo mismo.


Romans 3:20 Sapagka't sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa ng kautusan ay walang laman na aariing-ganap sa paningin niya; sapagka't sa pamamagitan ng kautusan ay ang pagkakilala ng kasalanan

Taliwas dito


Romans 2:13 Sapagka't hindi ang mga tagapakinig ng kautusan ang siyang mga ganap sa harapan ng Dios, kundi ang nangagsisitalima sa kautusan ay aariing mga ganap;
Taliwas daw ang Romans 3:20 sa Romans 2:13! Actually, the two passages complement each other. In Romans 2:13-15, "It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written in their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Clearly, Romans 2:13-15, speaks of those who are not under the Law of Moses, that is, the Gentiles. They are not under the express law handed down through Moses, but by following the natural law, they in fact abide with the Law of Moses.
Romans 3:20 on the other hand speaks of those who are under the Law of Moses, that is the Israelites. It is not the Law (that was handed down through Moses) that can make man perfect, no matter how he strives to obey all of them. The Law was promulgated to make them aware of their helplessness to attain perfection by themselves alone. Therefore, they have no reason to boast before God that they have fulfilled the law, for no one who is under the law could perfectly fulfill the law by himself.

Take care, justme, and remember the warning of the Apostle Peter about the writings of the Apostle Paul, how some of them are hard to understand such that others distort them to their own destruction.

justme
07-02-2008, 11:32 AM
By the way, Mam Agta...marami pang mga pending na tanong sa previous posts ko...pakisagot nlng...

agta
07-02-2008, 09:43 PM
By the way, Mam Agta...marami pang mga pending na tanong sa previous posts ko...pakisagot nlng...
You mean to say we should now leave the issue about the authenticity of the writings of Paul and start with the other questions? As I said, we shall take your questions one by one.

Really, as attested to by the Apostle Peter, there is no doubt, Paul's writings were with the wisdom of God. So this is settled.

jujebage
07-03-2008, 01:56 AM
nababasa ko na ang ganitong argumento sa ibat ibang website, at aasahan kong wala itong katapusan at walang matatalo dahil both sides ay maghahanap ng mali pero ang katotohanan ay walang mali sa isang religion . ang mali ay ang interpretation ng isang tao at paano niya ito pinpraktis. at doon na papasok ang gusto niyang "ipasok na mali" sa ibang religion. yun lang po. peace!!!!;) just visit
www.focolare.org dito po ay nagkakaisa lahat ng religion muslim ka man or christian. i invite agta and justme to visit this website once in a while and hope to see all of you one day in a meeting without mentioning our religion dahil yun ang magiging ugat ng debate.

hedwig
07-03-2008, 08:56 AM
.. hello .. ganda ng dicussion ni just at madam agta... he he he..so nice.. well anywayss... only i can say that every race and evry religion has thier own God. the muslims, the Christians, the Buddism. and etc... as to have my researched and readings about who is GOD ----. the DIVINE CREATOR...and come in to different interpretation as what is His name, He called Allah for Muslim, they called Yahweh and Jehova fror christians and sometimes called it the God the Father...through years a books was created and interpreted as where thier teachings and words was written.... and called it the Holy Scriptures---- Koran for muslims and Holy Bible for Christians....and etcc.. it is where different teachings, and the so-called word of God is written.. now i think its up to the people where he feel blessed then he have to choose which he think the right one, but both of this relegion is keep on convincing that this and that relegion is the real one and established truth, every religion has its own weakness, debate dito debate doon.....hanapan ng mga mali.... and this issue have no end...

Jeff
07-03-2008, 11:10 AM
Paulit-ulit kung binasa binigay mong talata, Acts 9:2, 19:23, at hindi ko nakita kahit anino ang sinasabi mong "desperado siyang sirain ang Nazarene sect". It seems you are imagining things. Better make a direct quote to support your allegation. Imagination is not fact.


Style Soriano ah! He he he. Ano kaya ang nakita mong mali sa 1 Corinthians 9:19-21?


Taliwas daw ang Romans 3:20 sa Romans 2:13! Actually, the two passages complement each other. In Romans 2:13-15, "It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written in their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Clearly, Romans 2:13-15, speaks of those who are not under the Law of Moses, that is, the Gentiles. They are not under the express law handed down through Moses, but by following the natural law, they in fact abide with the Law of Moses.
Romans 3:20 on the other hand speaks of those who are under the Law of Moses, that is the Israelites. It is not the Law (that was handed down through Moses) that can make man perfect, no matter how he strives to obey all of them. The Law was promulgated to make them aware of their helplessness to attain perfection by themselves alone. Therefore, they have no reason to boast before God that they have fulfilled the law, for no one who is under the law could perfectly fulfill the law by himself.

Take care, justme, and remember the warning of the Apostle Peter about the writings of the Apostle Paul, how some of them are hard to understand such that others distort them to their own destruction.

Paano mo sasabihin Aling justme na taliwas, naku patay na kulang kapa talaga. Walang salungat dun, read in other English Bible, para lalo mo siguro maintindihan.

hedwig
07-04-2008, 10:02 AM
... mahirap talaga pag magdebate ang muslim at christians pagdating sa kanilang mga paniniwala about sa kanilang religion,, they both claiming the truth... no ending debate he he he..

acpatagnan
07-05-2008, 09:43 AM
Christianity, Islam and any other religion should not debate or argue with each other. They have all one thing in common which is the belief in the supernatural things. What they should do is gather themselves up and debate or argue to the only one---objective atheist.

It is religion(faith) versus science(reason). This is the issue. Who will win? Who will decide?

agta
07-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Christianity, Islam and any other religion should not debate or argue with each other. They have all one thing in common which is the belief in the supernatural things. What they should do is gather themselves up and debate or argue to the only one---objective atheist.

It is religion(faith) versus science(reason). This is the issue. Who will win? Who will decide?
What you are proposing actpatagnan is a long dead issue. No man can resurrect it...not you!

brategamete
02-20-2009, 12:44 AM
... mahirap talaga pag magdebate ang muslim at christians pagdating sa kanilang mga paniniwala about sa kanilang religion,, they both claiming the truth... no ending debate he he he..

Dili kinahanglan debatehan....

Ang nagsulat sa Koran c muhammad. Iya ra tanan.

Ang nagsulat sa Biblia mga balaang tawo sa Dios nga gidasig sa Balaang Espiritu.

ALLAH and GOD = the same.

Apan ang writer niini mao ang nagkalahi.

Ang Bible writers are HOLY MEN.

Ang writer sa KORAN ba balaan? Tubag...mga muslim....