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acpatagnan
05-13-2009, 09:33 PM
What is corruption? Is corruption an action based on what standard?
What is religion?
What makes religion corrupt? What is the moraltiy of religion?
What is morality or ethics? Does man needs morality or ethics? What for?

Is religion the root of corruption? Yes or NO? justify your answer.

agta
05-13-2009, 10:17 PM
What is corruption? Here is what the dictionary says:

• Putrefaction, the decomposition of recently-living matter. Other meanings of the term use this as a metaphor.
• Political corruption, the dysfunction of a political system or institution in which government officials, political officials or employees seek illegitimate personal gain through actions such as bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage, graft, and embezzlement.
o Political corruption is a specific form of rent seeking (not to be confused with property rental), where access to politics is restricted by limited transparency, limited competition and domination of narrow interests.
• Corporate corruption, the abuse of power by corporate managers against shareholders or consumers.
• Data corruption, an unintended change to data in storage or in transit.
• Linguistic corruption, the change in meaning to a language or a text introduced by cumulative errors in transcription as changes in the language speakers' comprehension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption

And what is religion? Here:

Religion . . . means the conscious relation between man and God, and the expression of that relation in human conduct. --J. K["o]stlin (Schaff-Herzog Encyc.)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Knowing from the foregoing what is corruption and what is religion, now we go to the question: Is religion the root of corruption?

Nature teaches us that if the root is guava, then surely the trunk is also guava. Now, God as known by those who believe in Him, is Holy and incorruptible. And this Holy One calls the believers to be holy just He is holy. All their actions and non-actions should be aimed at holiness and incorruption, for that is what the God that they believe in wants of them.

Clearly, if religion is a root, and a holy and incorruptible root, therefore it's trunk could be no other but holy and incorruptible too. Hence, the answer to the question is a big NO. Religion therefore, true religion that is, could never be a root of corruption.

acpatagnan
06-07-2009, 08:03 PM
When I say corruption the root is religion, I mean in essence. Religion in general outrightly attacked the human mind as the ONLY means of knowledge. When a simple mind asked: What is God? How do you know God exist? What is the proof that God exist? Since religion cannot answer that clearly with reason based on the facts of reality, what they will tell you is this: "God is incomprehensible by the human mind; what you must do is just believe it without any questions". That means the mind is not the means of knowing, it is not the tools of knowledge of reality, everything that man wants to know. Religion in short attacked the human mind. Read the story of Adam and Eve in the Genesis, the Bible-the source document of christianity.

The evidences are every where. The people in the government are all religious, God fearing and yet there are corruptions. Reason: they do not know or do not accept the nature of the government. Knowing the nature of government through reason as the only means of knowing. No total separation of the State from religion; no total separation of state from economic activities.

From the start of your life, they will tell you there is God, but cannot show. That will obviously corrupt the simple questioning mind of a child up to his adolescent years. Religious ideas are full of contradictions. Religion maintained it. You cannot have a relationship to a non-existing being. You cannot even hear,touch, see or taste His existence. LOL

agta
06-08-2009, 03:18 AM
Who says that the people in government are religious and God fearing? You alone says that! But what you say is absolutely not true. It seems you are living only in your own dream. Such kind of thinking is the one that could cause corruption. A life in make-believe only.

acpatagnan
06-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Ask them if they believe in God. That is the proof. It is undeniable, they will answer you. "Yes, I believe in God." It is you who must wake up to the facts that corruptions start in the belief without proof or evidences.

If there is an objective atheist candidate will you vote for him? Who will you vote for? Of course all them proclaim "maka diyos." You will not vote for an atheist of course. LOL Murderers, killers, and even you will say, satan believe in God, LOL Go to Muntinlupa and observed that they all believe in God. LOL

agta
06-11-2009, 10:02 PM
When you said that "the people in government are religious and God-fearing", that is an opinion of yours which you have a duty to support with evidence.

Now, you seem to tell me that your evidence is that when we ask these people whether they believe in God or not, you imply that you are sure that they would say they do. And that I would not vote for anyone who does not believe in God. Therefore, you conclude that they are religious and God-fearing.

Look at your logic!

Don't you know that even Satan believe in God too? But that does not make Satan religious or God-fearing.

Clearly then, your opinion that the people in government are religious and God-fearing is baseless and illogical. And following your own method of reasoning presented in your preceding post, that it is in the belief without proof or evidence that corruption starts, we can therefore say that your baseless and illogical opinion is a root of corruption.

Wake up friend!

acpatagnan
06-13-2009, 07:05 PM
Did you asked your mayor, your governor, your congressman and all government employees, if they believed in God or not? What are their answers? Be honest with yourself.
Evasion is a form of corruption. Evading the real facts is corruption of the mind. And religion is doing it since your childhood.

Yes, according to your book, Satan even trembled. Well, anyway, that is all mythologies and stories without any basis on reality.

Religion is based on false idea. When it is accepted and believed in it will corrupt the human mind. That is absolutely true (philosophically) whether you accept it or not. Observed them. Observed yourself.

agta
06-14-2009, 06:22 AM
You want me to do something which is irrelevant to your proclaimed belief that the people in government are religious and God-fearing. Did you still not understand the point I was driving at? The point is: even if those people would say that they believe in God, it would not necessarily follow that they are religious and God-fearing! That is the main point which you just pretended not to have gotten in your head. That pretension of yours is the real example of what you called evasion.

Unless you confront the issue at hand head on, you have no right to change such issue. Either you have real evidence of your belief that the people in government are religious and God-fearing, or you are simply believing on something that exists only in your mind. That is the issue at hand. And so far, the evidence that you proposed are all without relevance to the point at issue.

acpatagnan
06-19-2009, 09:58 PM
You want me to do something which is irrelevant to your proclaimed belief that the people in government are religious and God-fearing. Did you still not understand the point I was driving at? The point is: even if those people would say that they believe in God, it would not necessarily follow that they are religious and God-fearing! That is the main point which you just pretended not to have gotten in your head. That pretension of yours is the real example of what you called evasion.

Unless you confront the issue at hand head on, you have no right to change such issue. Either you have real evidence of your belief that the people in government are religious and God-fearing, or you are simply believing on something that exists only in your mind. That is the issue at hand. And so far, the evidence that you proposed are all without relevance to the point at issue.

Yes, it is relevant, of course. You stated and your Holy Book stated that even Satan trembled in fear of God. Satan, according to your Book, is a fallen angel. An angel who disobeyed God. Since there is no such supernatural beings, those people who declared they believed God are only fantazing that there is God or Satan. Meaning they are way far from reality-irrational. What makes them corrupt? First is their mind set, their mental attitude.

Since there is no evidence that God exist, then the only evidences for those people who declared that they believe and fear God are their statement, their actions like attending churches, hearing sermons and praying or wishfull asking. What is the proof of believing in God? Answer: Statement, declaration in public, attending churches, praying. and if your are serious in your religion: Obey God to whatever whims God wants you to do, like killing your son and offering it to Him. Or even die like a Islamic terrorist for Allahs sake.

You know and don't accept it that religion is unreason, irrational, non-sense; anything irrational, nonsense is corrupt. Unreason CORRUPTS the mind; and it started during your childhood, in religious schools. Religion is anti-mind and therefore, anti-life. That is the root of corruptions. LOL

agta
06-20-2009, 07:22 AM
You still did not face the issue at hand and it seems you do not know what is relevancy. Let me spell this out once again for your benefit. The issue at hand is your claim that the people in government are religious and God-fearing. I said that this belief of yours is totally false. You submitted as evidence your claim that these people believe in God. I said that your evidence is irrelevant to the point at issue because the fact that a person believes in God does not necessarily make him religious and God-fearing. In other words, there is no logical relation between belief in God and being religious and God-fearing. One who is truly religious recognizes God as his Heaven Father and strives to follow God's holiness and incorruptibility. There exists a real personal relation of Father and child between him and God. Absence such personal relation, there would be no religiousity to speak of.

Actually, you contradict yourself. You do not believe that there is God and yet you claim that the people in government are religious and God-fearing. Meditate about it. Do you honestly believe that the people in government are religious and God-fearing or you are simply making a straw man that you would use in spreading a false idea?

brategamete
06-22-2009, 03:46 PM
pwede mo apil.

My religion teaches me not be corrupt. Because my religion brings me to be like God, who is not corrupt.

brategamete
06-22-2009, 03:48 PM
People who are in the wrong religion are corrupt.

People who dont have religion are corrupt.

People who dont believe and follow their God are corrupt.

People who dont believe God and dont believe that all good conduct and ethics come from Him are corrupt.

acpatagnan
06-30-2009, 03:28 PM
So you really want evidences that people in the government believe and fear God. That is so easy. Just simply asked then and they will tell you. Observe their activities: they go the churches, they pray, they even preach God's teachings. The Philippines is a religious society. Filipinos are superstitiously religious whether you accept that fact or not.

My whole point is this: corruption start in the mind. Believing something without any solid proof is corruption at that start. This will lead you to other activities with that kind of mind set. And it really shows in politics, in ethics, in philosophy the very root of it all. :)

agta
07-01-2009, 06:44 AM
You are driving the issue out either intentionally or out of ignorance. The issue, to repeat, is your claim that "the people in government are religious and God-fearing".

Do not change that issue. It is different from saying ""people in the government believe and fear God"."

The acts you described in your post immediately preceding do not guarantee that a person performing them is indeed religious and God-fearing. They are external acts which may or may not indicate that the person is religious and God-fearing.

Therefore, what you called easy, you failed to do.

Jeff
07-02-2009, 02:36 PM
Dear ACPatagan, remember me? Still you are what you are hehehe walang ka dala dala. You know what? You are really challenging God for a fist fight. Man and God is incomparable. As I said to you before, we are not product of cosmic accident we are God's creation. Now if our Government is corrupt there is no doubt about it, it's no longer big deal because every country every leaders are no not blameless, if we have no God in our heart we are corrupt.


So you really want evidences that people in the government believe and fear God. That is so easy. Just simply asked then and they will tell you. Observe their activities: they go the churches, they pray, they even preach God's teachings. The Philippines is a religious society. Filipinos are superstitiously religious whether you accept that fact or not.

My whole point is this: corruption start in the mind. Believing something without any solid proof is corruption at that start. This will lead you to other activities with that kind of mind set. And it really shows in politics, in ethics, in philosophy the very root of it all. :)

Jeff
07-02-2009, 02:41 PM
"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."

acpatagnan
07-02-2009, 03:26 PM
Dear ACPatagan, remember me? Still you are what you are hehehe walang ka dala dala. You know what? You are really challenging God for a fist fight. Man and God is incomparable. As I said to you before, we are not product of cosmic accident we are God's creation. Now if our Government is corrupt there is no doubt about it, it's no longer big deal because every country every leaders are no not blameless, if we have no God in our heart we are corrupt.

Yeah, I won't forget you. Nothing has change about me. I am not for any physical fist fight. I am here for a discussion. Nothing to be scared of (dala dala). Because reality and reason is on my side. Challenging God? Come on be realistic. There is no such being you call God. It's just human imagination and fantasy. You know it is only evading facts or evidences: that all people in the government are God believers. They have faith in God. But still there is corruption in the government. What makes it so? Simple: Believing on something without any basis in reality is arbitrary and causes the mind to be corrupted, irrational. Irrationality leads to corruption. :D

agta
07-02-2009, 06:50 PM
You know it is only evading facts or evidences: that all people in the government are God believers. They have faith in God. But still there is corruption in the government. What makes it so? Simple: Believing on something without any basis in reality is arbitrary and causes the mind to be corrupted, irrational. Irrationality leads to corruption. :D
One of the errors that you are committing is your failure to see the difference between two different things. Such kind of erroneous process of thinking makes you jump from one point to nowhere at your destruction.

For example: Now you insist that people in government are "God believers", and by that, in your view, they all have faith in God. And since you see that government is corrupt, you then made the conclusion that it is faith in God that makes people corrupt.

You see the magic in your logic? Such conclusion of yours is clearly wrong, because, for one: TRUE FAITH, as clearly shown in post#2, is not compatible with CORRUPTION. Therefore, where there is corruption, rational men does not talk of presence of FAITH therein.

But you seem to be carried not by correct reason but by what you want to believe. You want to believe that faith and corruption are "marriageable", and in fact you imagine them "married" already to each other. Why do you want to do this impossible feat? You want that faith and corruption should "marry" each other because you have no other way to destroy true FAITH. Therefore, you forced yourself to believe in the incredible, in your hope that by so doing you would appear credible.

acpatagnan
07-09-2009, 04:20 PM
No it is not jumping. It is related. It is interconnected. It is not impossible to show connection between faith and corruption.

The starting point is this: Faith is believing on something without any evidence or proof to show. Knowledge start in our senses or sense perception then process it to form abstraction with the use of language. The word for example "chair" represent the actual chair. Higher abstraction or concepts like marriage, justice, economics etc can be traced backed to sense perception. But the word "God" as an abstraction or concept cannot be traced backed to sense perception. That is why I call it a "floating abstraction" no connection to the real world. From that point, faith is just believing without any connection to the actual world and this leads to corruption of the mind. The process of knowledge is cut off or corrupted at the root. With that mental set up it can be carried along with the knowledge of morality or ethics. Why is it that they asked bribe, steal money from government fund, "palakasan" and other forms of corruption and at the same time declare (if asked) that they believe in God?

The only proof you can find from those "God believers" are their statement and actions. There is no other.

Yes, it is not impossible to connect the concept of faith (epistemology) with the concept of corruption (ethics).

agta
07-10-2009, 06:11 AM
You accused them of having faith when they have none! That is one basic error that you committed here. It simply shows that you do not have a correct understanding of what is faith. Besides, you an atheist, have no right teaching others what is faith. For faith, in its correct meaning, is not compatible with corruption. Therefore, when we find corruption in any man, we can be sure that faith is still lacking in him, even if he should shout to the world that he believes in God, much less if he declares to the world that there is no God.

acpatagnan
08-25-2009, 12:20 PM
You accused them of having faith when they have none! That is one basic error that you committed here. It simply shows that you do not have a correct understanding of what is faith. Besides, you an atheist, have no right teaching others what is faith. For faith, in its correct meaning, is not compatible with corruption. Therefore, when we find corruption in any man, we can be sure that faith is still lacking in him, even if he should shout to the world that he believes in God, much less if he declares to the world that there is no God.

No, I am not accusing them of having faith. I am stating a fact that 100% of the people in the government do declare and profess to have faith in God. From their own mouth, they said they believe in God. From the point what is faith? It is accepting and believing on something that has no proof or evidence which is arbitrary. An arbitrary is irrational, false and evil. Thus it is the very root of corruption. For "faith" an action itself is corrupt. This leads more to further corruption in other aspect of man's life: politics and ethics.:)

agta
08-27-2009, 07:22 AM
No, I am not accusing them of having faith. I am stating a fact that 100% of the people in the government do declare and profess to have faith in God. From their own mouth, they said they believe in God. From the point what is faith? It is accepting and believing on something that has no proof or evidence which is arbitrary. An arbitrary is irrational, false and evil. Thus it is the very root of corruption. For "faith" an action itself is corrupt. This leads more to further corruption in other aspect of man's life: politics and ethics.:)
So, you therefore believe that they have faith because they said so? So you think it is a fact that they have faith simply because they said it! What kind of logic is that? If that is how you reason, then you must also believe that there is God because they said so. You must therefore believe that it is a fact that there is God because they said so.

Now, you have no choice but to believe in what you consider as a fact. You have no choice but to believe that there is God, otherwise, your mind would be warring against your own mouth.

hamonada
08-27-2009, 04:01 PM
FAITH - is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

God is Good All the Time!!! HE still always love to those individual who don't believe on HIM. He poured out HIS blood to save everyone from the bondages of sin.

GOD BLESS US ALL!!!

Jeff
10-22-2009, 03:50 PM
Hahaha this is already a year old discussion and until now this is still the topic, I've been in Russia for many months but when i come back ito pa rin...hahaha ano ba yan. See what happened now in our country, we are the favorite distination of typhoons, you heard how ondoy and pepe devastated manila and luzon? terrible, many died kailan pa ba ang tao kikilala na may tunay na DIOS...saka ba natin lang kikilalanin kung andyan na ang sakuna at ng hindi dumating ang mga relief goods?

acpatagnan
10-24-2009, 05:51 PM
Typhoons always come to the Philippines. It is a yearly events. Whether you believe in God or not, it will come. The question is whether you are prepared or not. Building a house near a river, without taking in consideration of other factors like flood, typhoon, earthquake is irrationallty or plane stupidity. Actuallly, most of those affected by the flood are believers in God.

By the way what is faith? believing? What do you do when you have faith in God? What do you do when believing? Specially believing on something that does not exist like God? It is only an emotion or feelings based on the a wrong premise: the existence of God. Faith is simply emotions and feelings.

If your action is based on emotions it will corrupt your thinking power.

agta
10-24-2009, 11:05 PM
If your action is based on emotions it will corrupt your thinking power.
Yeah! Just like what you are doing here in this thread and in most thread that you started.

Jeff
10-28-2009, 12:25 PM
ACPatagnan is a kind person who really love to challenge the thinking of GOD, this person soon will call the name of his creator once he will experience the "kapighatian sa buhay" not now maybe but soon this poor creature will bend his knee and ask for forgiveness of harboring godlessness in his heart.

Matagal na tayo nagkaroon ng debate dito, pero di ako believe sa iyo pre.

acpatagnan
04-27-2012, 04:22 PM
ACPatagnan is a kind person who really love to challenge the thinking of GOD, this person soon will call the name of his creator once he will experience the "kapighatian sa buhay" not now maybe but soon this poor creature will bend his knee and ask for forgiveness of harboring godlessness in his heart.

Matagal na tayo nagkaroon ng debate dito, pero di ako believe sa iyo pre.

Matagal-tagal na rin akong hindi nakaka log in dito sa forum. Totoo na I love to challenge the thinking of God. Sabi nga ni Thomas Jefferson sa kanyang pamangkin "question even the existence of God". Walang masama sa pagtatanong tungkol sa paniniwala sa Diyos. Panahon na upang tanong ang mga sarili kung may Diyos ba o wala. Bakit? Dahil ang ating isip ay mapagtanong at kailangan ng kasagutan. Sino ba ang nagdala ng relihiyong Catholic dito sa ating bansa? Hindi ba mga kastila? Ano ba ang paniniwala ng ating mga ninuno bago dumating ang mga kastila? Marahil ay sila ay mga pagano. Paniniwala sa kalikasan na may taglay na kapangyarihan na hindi pa nauunawan noong unang panahon kaya ito ay kanilang sinasamba. Kaya patuloy tayo sa ating talakayan. Sa tagalog naman para maintindihan ng lahat.