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acpatagnan
07-26-2007, 12:39 PM
Let us start a debate to a very controversial issue. Can you image living a life without having a religion? Is it possible? What is religion? Is religion the only source of morality, the knowledge of what is right or wrong? Why do we (man) need morality? Why do we (man) need to know what is right and wrong, good or evil? Is there an alternative?

Europa
07-26-2007, 05:17 PM
My husband is one f them, he is a FREE THINKER but it doesnt bother and it doesnt disturb our life. As long na malinis ang pag iisip at kunsensya mo hindi ka nakikigulo at wala kang sinaktan na tao. May respeto ka sa kapwa mo, walang problema may religion ka man or wala.

acpatagnan
07-27-2007, 07:47 PM
Here in the Philippine, where most people have or a member of any religious organization will be shocked if they will know and tell them that God do not exist. So my objective here is to start a discussion forum questioning the existence of God.

If I say that religion is the root cause of corruption starting from the family up to government organization, I have an explanation for it. Most people will hate you stating it. So I am waiting through this medium someone in biliran to joint in this discussion. :D

Jeff
07-30-2007, 10:22 AM
Here in the Philippine, where most people have or a member of any religious organization will be shocked if they will know and tell them that God do not exist. So my objective here is to start a discussion forum questioning the existence of God.

If I say that religion is the root cause of corruption starting from the family up to government organization, I have an explanation for it. Most people will hate you stating it. So I am waiting through this medium someone in biliran to joint in this discussion. :D

If only a man understand what is his/her purpose to live in this world, then all of these uncertainties and misconception will be at bay. Dapat lang nating isipin na hindi tayo na andito sa mundo para sa sariling kapakanan, for me man is created because his/her ultimate purpose is to serve and adore GOD no more no less.

acpatagnan
08-21-2007, 04:57 PM
If only a man understand what is his/her purpose to live in this world, then all of these uncertainties and misconception will be at bay. Dapat lang nating isipin na hindi tayo na andito sa mundo para sa sariling kapakanan, for me man is created because his/her ultimate purpose is to serve and adore GOD no more no less.


How do you know that it is man's purpose is to serve the interest of God? How do you know that God exist? There is no proof or evidence that God exist. It is only the bible or koran (a man made literature) that says so.

Man lives only for himself based on the very nature of it. Your interest and value is your life. Therefore you have to support your own life. How? Man is equiped to do it. He has a mind as a tool to be used for his own survival. To obtain food, he has to know how to plant. meaning be productive-have a carreer and enjoy it and live to the fullest. To acquire knowledge he has to use his mind. For man's faculty is man's tool of knowing things. Therefore the question is: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT GOD EXIST? WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE OR PROOF? WHAT IS GOD? CAN WE IDENTIFY GOD BY MEANS OF REASON (MIND AS THE TOOL OF KNOWLEDGE)? Is it not to understand is to know things? How are we going to understand if we do not know by means of reason?

I AM THEREFORE I'LL THINK.

YOUR LIFE DEPENDS UPON YOUR MIND. LIVE AND ACT TO THE LIMIT OF YOUR MIND. KEEP EXPANDING IT TO THE LIMIT OF YOUR LIFE.

YOUR LIFE BELONGS TO YOU AND THAT THE GOOD IS TO LIVE IT.

ronilosm
08-22-2007, 01:37 AM
I need to know where you're coming from before I post my thoughts. Tell me, Mr Patagnan (I am assuming here), where did you actually think you came from? I mean, where did your parents came from, and their parents, and their parents' parents, etc. Let's stablish your origin and then we'll start this discussion you have just started.

Regards and may God bless you and give you more insights to see that there is nothing in this world that you can explain without a need to acknowledge a Supreme Being for its creator.

acpatagnan
08-22-2007, 10:53 AM
Ronilosm, is it not necessary to know those things (my origin). But I can assure you and you can check it out in the Naval civil registrar that I was born in that town Naval. If I can remember it right the street is Corvera near the public market. My father was from Almeria my mother formerly resides on Corvera st. near the public market, their house was sold when I was just 1 or 2 years old and transfer to Manila where I grew up. But I took up my high school years in Naval High School then now it is NIT. Now its your turn to give me your bio-data if this is necessary for exciting, educatinal discussion.

THE QUESTIONS ARE HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT GOD EXIST? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS SUCH THING AS CREATOR? WHO CREATED THE CREATOR? THOSE ARE QUESTION THAT MAN MUST KNOW EXACTLY? ARE YOU AFRAID ABOUT DISCUSSING IT? What is the tool in knowing those things or answering those questins?
Have you imagine living your life without any religion?

jujebage
08-23-2007, 03:51 AM
di nako maintindihan ang mga tawong di kaintindi sa ilang kaugalingon. ug diin sila gikan.

kinahanglang pa ba nato ablihan atong tiyan aron motoo ta nga duna tay kasingkasing?
kinahanglan pa ba natong balion atong kamot aron atong makit an kung dunay tay bukog?
kinahanglan pa natong dunggabon atong tiyan aron atong makit an kun duna tay dugo?

kinakahanglang pa ba natong mahibaw ang nganong mabuhi ang bata ug siyam ka bulan sa tiyan sa inahan aron ta motoo sa milagro sa diyos.

ug labaw sa tanan kinahanglan ba gyud nato makita ang diyos aron ta motoo nga anaa siya.?

ikaw pre gikan ka ba sa liki sa kawayan?
o itlog ka ra sa lamok nga itsura ug tawo.

Jeff
08-23-2007, 11:08 AM
Ako rin di ko maintindihan bakit may mga tao na tinatanong kung may GOD ba o nag exixt ba ang GOD. Bigats naman ng tanong nayan? Una bago tayo mag duda kung may GOD, siguro dapat natin itanong sa sarili bakit tayo ngayon naandito sa mundo. Sino ba ang gumawa sa mundo, sa mga hayop, halaman, langit, tubig lahat lahat. tayo ba ay nag exist dahil sa accidente lang? Lahat ng mga ito ay may dahilan or purpose. Ang kasagutan sa tanong kung talagang may GOD ay mababasa sa GENESIS ng biblia.

acpatagnan
08-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Ang pangutana atong linawon ug tubagon: NAA BAY DIYOS? Unsa man nato mahibaluan nga naa? Ipakita ang ebidensiya o proweba.

Man has a faculty of knowing things-his mind. In acquiring knowledge of something we use our reason for certainty of that knowledge if it is true or false.

Ang biblia dili mana ebidensysa. Tawo ang nagsulat sa Biblia. Anything man made must be put to questions. The word god is man made, so it is also subject to questions and investigation.

Ang wala ay wala. Ang naa ay naa. Ang moingon nga naa ug walay maipakita nga proweba or ebidensiya unsa man tawag niana? Malaking kasinungalingan ba? Dakong pamakak?

HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT WE KNOW? WHAT IS THE TOOL OF KNOWLEDGE?

crisia
08-23-2007, 11:45 AM
http://photos-340.friendster.com/e1/photos/04/34/26014340/1_660534923l.jpg
uhmm!..marami rn akung tanung kng may GOD ba tlaga..^-^ but n0w, narealize ku na hndi namn tlga kelangan itanung pa un..pag 2mitingin aku sa paligid, der nala2man ku na nag e.exist talaga xah..yeh!..bnigyan nya k0 ng napakaraming biya2 s0, sapat na un para malaman ku na anjan xah..nah!..bsta!..di ku ma.xplain..;)

jujebage
08-23-2007, 01:46 PM
pre dili tanang pangutana kinahanglang tubangon kun gusto ka masayod sa imong pangutana dili ni ang eksaktong lugar alang sa imong pangutana kun ikaw karon wala pay eksaktong lugar o pagtoo ayaw kabalaka kay usa ka adlaw mosangpit ka kaniya. para nako dili na nako pangutan on ang akong kaugalingon kay gitubag na kini bisan dili halawom ang akong gipangayong tubag. mao na kini ang akonglast nga response niining imong thread kay aron dili ba usab mababoy ang pagtoo sa usa ka tawo lahi man gud ming may gituuhan kumpara sa mga walay gituuhan.

ako wala man sab ko kakita sa lolo sa akong lolo pero motoo ko nga aduna akoy lolo ug daghan kini kay ikapila na man ko ka henerasyon. so di na ko mangutana nimo kun motoo ba ako nga aduna akoy lolo sa tuhod or lapa lapa or unsay pa diha nga mga ngalan kay ang proof nga aduna akoy lolo, ang ako mismong kaugalingon, giunsa man nako pag anhi sa kalibutan di ba simple kaayo ang tubag.


peace.:) :) :)


ug para ni crisia guapa man ka day!!! ikaw ba kini

mbb
08-23-2007, 02:54 PM
without going to the 'book'..
sa pangutana kung naa bay ginoo, akong tubag: naa. ebedensya? sirkumstansyal, dili na nako kinahanglan ipasabot.

ang ginoo usa ka pagtou ug ang pagtou dili makita.

"HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT WE KNOW? WHAT IS THE TOOL OF KNOWLEDGE?"
what we know is what we believe. the tool of knowlege is what we know which is what we believe. and what we believe is our faith. and if you have faith you have god, knowingly and unknowingly. nasundan ko nimo nong acpatagnan?

kadtong dili motou nga naay ginoo, mao kanay gitawag ug pag-panghimakak (denial).

mao ra nay ako.

ug uy!...gwapaha sa hulagway uy. pastilan ginoo ko...day, unsa imo email?

Jeff
08-24-2007, 11:14 AM
Ang pangutana atong linawon ug tubagon: NAA BAY DIYOS? Unsa man nato mahibaluan nga naa? Ipakita ang ebidensiya o proweba.

Man has a faculty of knowing things-his mind. In acquiring knowledge of something we use our reason for certainty of that knowledge if it is true or false.

Ang biblia dili mana ebidensysa. Tawo ang nagsulat sa Biblia. Anything man made must be put to questions. The word god is man made, so it is also subject to questions and investigation.

Ang wala ay wala. Ang naa ay naa. Ang moingon nga naa ug walay maipakita nga proweba or ebidensiya unsa man tawag niana? Malaking kasinungalingan ba? Dakong pamakak?

HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT WE KNOW? WHAT IS THE TOOL OF KNOWLEDGE?

Rev 4:11 Marapat ka, Oh Panginoon namin at Dios namin, na tumanggap ng kaluwalhatian at ng kapurihan at ng kapangyarihan: sapagka't nilikha mo ang lahat ng mga bagay at dahil sa iyong kalooban ay nangagsilitaw, at nangalikha.:cool:

acpatagnan
08-24-2007, 12:01 PM
You are all welcome. This is a forum wherein all can join and discuss, share and even debate anything under the sun. We are in a free country. Not unless the owner and sponsor banned this forum from doing so.

The thread is: Living life without religion, can you imagine it? Good or bad?

First let us discuss what is religion. Religion is an association of individuals who believe in the supernatural being or God. The major religion of the world are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism just to name the few. Under christianity it is divided into Roman Catholic, Protestant etc. Under Islam it is also divided into different group and the same with Hinduism and Buddism. All in all they focused on the belief on supernatural being. The minor differences are just the rituals, ceremonies and doctrines of how to worship. It is true that faith is believing on something without proof or evidence. This faith ended only as feeling, emotion in knowing things or reality.

Next, what is the nature of man? Man naturally has consciousness, a mind, reason. What is the function of his mind, reason. Its function is to know reality. Consciousness is grasping of that which exist or existence. The resulting knowledge is used for his own life and survival of it. We used reason in order to live our own life and enjoy it.

Now applying the tool (the mind) in knowing the existence of God, it ultimately arrived at the conclusion that the idea of God is just a floating abstraction, no connection to the real concrete world we live in.

Therefore, Faith is opposite of reason. Reason is man's tool of knowing based on real observable things while faith is just believing the uknowable without any further question. Then living without religion is good and possible? Just used your reasoning power.

Jeff
08-24-2007, 12:25 PM
You all welcome. This is a forum wherein all can join and discuss, share and even debate anything under the sun. We are in a free country. Not unless the owner and sponsor banned this forum from doing so.

The thred is: Living life without religion, can you imagine it? Good or bad?

First let us discuss what is religion. Religion is an association of individuals who believe in the supernatural being or God. The major religion of the world are Christianity, Islam, Hinduis, Buddism just to name the few. Under christianity it is divided into Roman Catholic, Protestant etc. Under Islam it is also divided into different group and the with Hinuism and Buddism. All in all they focused on the belief on supernatural being. It is true that faith is believing on something without proof or evidence.

Next, what is the nature of man? Man naturally has consciousness, a mind, reason. What is the function of his mind, reason. Its function is to know reality. Consciousness is grasping of that which existence. The resulting knowledge is used for his own life and survival of it. We used reason in order to live our own life.
Now applying the tool (the mind) in knowing the existence of God, you arrived at the conclusion that the idea of God is just a floating abstraction, no connection to the real concrete world we live in.

Therefore, Faith is opposite of reason. Reason is man's tool of knowing based on real observable things.

< First and foremost, the ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. Its the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it all for his glory. With out God's glory, there would be nothing. What is the Glory of God? It is who God is. It is the essence of his nature, the weight of his importance, the radiance of his splendor, the demonstration of his power, and the atmosphere of his presence. God's glory is the expression of his goodness and all his other intrinsic, eternal qualities. Where is the glory of God? JUST LOOK AROUND. Everything created by God reflects his glory in some way. We see it everywhere, from the smallest MICROSCOPIC form of life to the vast MILKY WAY, from sunsets and stars to storms and seasons. My question to you is if you dont have GOD in your heart, WHAT WILL YOU LIVE FOR? Is that the reason just to live and be merry then die? Or you are created or exist because you have the purpose to live for...>

acpatagnan
08-24-2007, 01:45 PM
< First and foremost, the ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. Its the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it all for his glory. With out God's glory, there would be nothing. What is the Glory of God? It is who God is. It is the essence of his nature, the weight of his importance, the radiance of his splendor, the demonstration of his power, and the atmosphere of his presence. God's glory is the expression of his goodness and all his other intrinsic, eternal qualities. Where is the glory of God? JUST LOOK AROUND. Everything created by God reflects his glory in some way. We see it everywhere, from the smallest MICROSCOPIC form of life to the vast MILKY WAY, from sunsets and stars to storms and seasons. My question to you is if you dont have GOD in your heart, WHAT WILL YOU LIVE FOR? Is that the reason just to live and be merry then die? Or you are created or exist because you have the purpose to live for...>


How do you know that it is the ultimate goal? Is it not just a fantastic imagination invented by man's mind? What is God? What is the nature of God? How can we know all this using our tool which is our mind, reason? How do you know what you know? Be explicit and not emotionally poetic. If God is the creator who created God? And who created the creator that created the creator God? Is it not endless and useless.

agta
08-24-2007, 10:16 PM
As to whether we can imagine to live without religion, yes we can... For man's imagination is so powerful...

As to whether God exists, let me share the following from Summa Theologica:

Article 1. Whether the existence of God is self-evident?

Objection 1. It seems that the existence of God is self-evident. Now those things are said to be self-evident to us the knowledge of which is naturally implanted in us, as we can see in regard to first principles. But as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 1,3), "the knowledge of God is naturally implanted in all." Therefore the existence of God is self-evident.

Objection 2. Further, those things are said to be self-evident which are known as soon as the terms are known, which the Philosopher (1 Poster. iii) says is true of the first principles of demonstration. Thus, when the nature of a whole and of a part is known, it is at once recognized that every whole is greater than its part. But as soon as the signification of the word "God" is understood, it is at once seen that God exists. For by this word is signified that thing than which nothing greater can be conceived. But that which exists actually and mentally is greater than that which exists only mentally. Therefore, since as soon as the word "God" is understood it exists mentally, it also follows that it exists actually. Therefore the proposition "God exists" is self-evident.

Objection 3. Further, the existence of truth is self-evident. For whoever denies the existence of truth grants that truth does not exist: and, if truth does not exist, then the proposition "Truth does not exist" is true: and if there is anything true, there must be truth. But God is truth itself: "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6) Therefore "God exists" is self-evident.

On the contrary, No one can mentally admit the opposite of what is self-evident; as the Philosopher (Metaph. iv, lect. vi) states concerning the first principles of demonstration. But the opposite of the proposition "God is" can be mentally admitted: "The fool said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalm 52:1). Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident.

I answer that, A thing can be self-evident in either of two ways: on the one hand, self-evident in itself, though not to us; on the other, self-evident in itself, and to us. A proposition is self-evident because the predicate is included in the essence of the subject, as "Man is an animal," for animal is contained in the essence of man. If, therefore the essence of the predicate and subject be known to all, the proposition will be self-evident to all; as is clear with regard to the first principles of demonstration, the terms of which are common things that no one is ignorant of, such as being and non-being, whole and part, and such like. If, however, there are some to whom the essence of the predicate and subject is unknown, the proposition will be self-evident in itself, but not to those who do not know the meaning of the predicate and subject of the proposition. Therefore, it happens, as Boethius says (Hebdom., the title of which is: "Whether all that is, is good"), "that there are some mental concepts self-evident only to the learned, as that incorporeal substances are not in space." Therefore I say that this proposition, "God exists," of itself is self-evident, for the predicate is the same as the subject, because God is His own existence as will be hereafter shown (3, 4). Now because we do not know the essence of God, the proposition is not self-evident to us; but needs to be demonstrated by things that are more known to us, though less known in their nature — namely, by effects.

agta
08-24-2007, 10:19 PM
Reply to Objection 1. To know that God exists in a general and confused way is implanted in us by nature, inasmuch as God is man's beatitude. For man naturally desires happiness, and what is naturally desired by man must be naturally known to him. This, however, is not to know absolutely that God exists; just as to know that someone is approaching is not the same as to know that Peter is approaching, even though it is Peter who is approaching; for many there are who imagine that man's perfect good which is happiness, consists in riches, and others in pleasures, and others in something else.

Reply to Objection 2. Perhaps not everyone who hears this word "God" understands it to signify something than which nothing greater can be thought, seeing that some have believed God to be a body. Yet, granted that everyone understands that by this word "God" is signified something than which nothing greater can be thought, nevertheless, it does not therefore follow that he understands that what the word signifies exists actually, but only that it exists mentally. Nor can it be argued that it actually exists, unless it be admitted that there actually exists something than which nothing greater can be thought; and this precisely is not admitted by those who hold that God does not exist.

Reply to Objection 3. The existence of truth in general is self-evident but the existence of a Primal Truth is not self-evident to us.
Article 2. Whether it can be demonstrated that God exists?

Objection 1. It seems that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated. For it is an article of faith that God exists. But what is of faith cannot be demonstrated, because a demonstration produces scientific knowledge; whereas faith is of the unseen (Hebrews 11:1). Therefore it cannot be demonstrated that God exists.

Objection 2. Further, the essence is the middle term of demonstration. But we cannot know in what God's essence consists, but solely in what it does not consist; as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 4). Therefore we cannot demonstrate that God exists.

Objection 3. Further, if the existence of God were demonstrated, this could only be from His effects. But His effects are not proportionate to Him, since He is infinite and His effects are finite; and between the finite and infinite there is no proportion. Therefore, since a cause cannot be demonstrated by an effect not proportionate to it, it seems that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated.

On the contrary, The Apostle says: "The invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20). But this would not be unless the existence of God could be demonstrated through the things that are made; for the first thing we must know of anything is whether it exists.

I answer that, Demonstration can be made in two ways: One is through the cause, and is called "a priori," and this is to argue from what is prior absolutely. The other is through the effect, and is called a demonstration "a posteriori"; this is to argue from what is prior relatively only to us. When an effect is better known to us than its cause, from the effect we proceed to the knowledge of the cause. And from every effect the existence of its proper cause can be demonstrated, so long as its effects are better known to us; because since every effect depends upon its cause, if the effect exists, the cause must pre-exist. Hence the existence of God, in so far as it is not self-evident to us, can be demonstrated from those of His effects which are known to us.

Reply to Objection 1. The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.

Reply to Objection 2. When the existence of a cause is demonstrated from an effect, this effect takes the place of the definition of the cause in proof of the cause's existence. This is especially the case in regard to God, because, in order to prove the existence of anything, it is necessary to accept as a middle term the meaning of the word, and not its essence, for the question of its essence follows on the question of its existence. Now the names given to God are derived from His effects; consequently, in demonstrating the existence of God from His effects, we may take for the middle term the meaning of the word "God".

Reply to Objection 3. From effects not proportionate to the cause no perfect knowledge of that cause can be obtained. Yet from every effect the existence of the cause can be clearly demonstrated, and so we can demonstrate the existence of God from His effects; though from them we cannot perfectly know God as He is in His essence.
Article 3. Whether God exists?

agta
08-24-2007, 10:20 PM
Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.

On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14)

I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

agta
08-24-2007, 10:26 PM
The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

acpatagnan
08-25-2007, 04:30 PM
TO AGTA,

Welcome to this forum of discussion.

In your objection 1. How do you know that the knowledge about God is implanted in the mind? Does a new born child have a ready knowledge of reality or the world we live in? Does a new born baby have a knowledge about God? Isn't it that Man is born "tabula rasa" meaning clean slate. Man is born like a clean coupon bond or paper. As he grows old he acquired knowledge of things (existence) that surrounds him. His sense organ is his contact with the real concrete world. His mind process that data received from senses and form conceptual knowledge-abstraction-higher form of abstraction. And since abstractions are man-made then they are subject to objective evaluations.
What is self-evident? Where is the evidence that man can know or recognized by himself, by his mind? WE NEED PROOF OR EVIDENCE. SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!

In your objection 2. In other words, the word God was mentally imagined by man. Therefore the word God is man-made. Then logically, it is man who invented the idea of God. Based on the false premise that God created the universe, then who created the God who created the universe , who created the creator that created the creator and so on. This is endless and useless. Mattter can not be destroyed nor be created. It only changes its form.

In your objection 3. What is truth? Is it not the recognition of the reality, of facts, of existence. To know existence is to know the truth. How can man know the true (the real, the concrete material world)? Is it not by means of his consciousness, his mind, his reason.

1. Magnetism and gravity is not a proof that god exist. They are the characteristics or attributes of entites: planets, stars, universe.

2. Cause and effect is also not a proof of God. It is an attribute of existence. It is entity that is the cause.


Finally, there is no proof that God exist. It is only accepted by faith, by feelings, by emotions, as advocated by religious group.

The question is HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW? What is the tool, the method in arriving at knowledge? FAITH? OR REASON?

Jeff
08-26-2007, 08:51 AM
TO AGTA,

Welcome to this forum of discussion.

In your objection 1. How do you know that the knowledge about God is implanted in the mind? Does a new born child have a ready knowledge of reality or the world we live in? Does a new born baby have a knowledge about God? Isn't it that Man is born "tabula rasa" meaning clean slate. Man is born like a clean coupon bond or paper. As he grows old he acquired knowledge of things (existence) that surrounds him. His sense organ is his contact with the real concrete world. His mind process that data received from senses and form conceptual knowledge-abstraction-higher form of abstraction. And since abstractions are man-made then they are subject to objective evaluations.
What is self-evident? Where is the evidence that man can know or recognized by himself, by his mind? WE NEED PROOF OR EVIDENCE. SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!

In your objection 2. In other words, the word God was mentally imagined by man. Therefore the word God is man-made. Then logically, it is man who invented the idea of God. Based on the false premise that God created the universe, then who created the God who created the universe , who created the creator that created the creator and so on. This is endless and useless. Mattter can not be destroyed nor be created. It only changes its form.

In your objection 3. What is truth? Is it not the recognition of the reality, of facts, of existence. To know existence is to know the truth. How can man know the true (the real, the concrete material world)? Is it not by means of his consciousness, his mind, his reason.

1. Magnetism and gravity is not a proof that god exist. They are the characteristics or attributes of entites: planets, stars, universe.

2. Cause and effect is also not a proof of God. It is an attribute of existence. It is entity that is the cause.


Finally, there is no proof that God exist. It is only accepted by faith, by feelings, by emotions, as advocated by religious group.

The question is HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW? What is the tool, the method in arriving at knowledge? FAITH? OR REASON?

YOU BETTER READ THE BIBLE AND ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED. THIS THINGS YOU SAID SHOULD NOT BE USE FOR A NON SENSE DEBATE. WHO ARE WE QUESTIONING THE WISDOM OF GOD. LETS STOP IT. BAGO KA MAGTANONG TANONG SA MGA BAGAY NA MISMO IKAW DI MAKASAGOT, MAG TANONG KA MUNA BAKIT IKAW PA AY ISINILANG AT ANO ANG GAMIT MO SA MUNDO. PALAMUTI KALANG BA? DEKORASYON, O ACCIDENT LANG DUE TO COSMIC MAGIC....:confused:

luther
08-26-2007, 11:56 AM
Korek ka jeff....

agta
08-26-2007, 03:54 PM
Quoted from Acpatagnan:

"1. Magnetism and gravity is not a proof that god exist. They are the characteristics or attributes of entites: planets, stars, universe.

2. Cause and effect is also not a proof of God. It is an attribute of existence. It is entity that is the cause.


Finally, there is no proof that God exist. It is only accepted by faith, by feelings, by emotions, as advocated by religious group.

The question is HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW? What is the tool, the method in arriving at knowledge? FAITH? OR REASON?"

For me, FAITH and REASON compliment each other in knowing the truth. There are truths which for the time being man is unable to reach by reason. Those truths can be reached by faith. Faith is the result of revealed truths which may at a time could not be fathomed by man's limited intellectual power. But those who posses higher intellectual power may be able to grasp them intellectually.They may be lucky for having that intellectual power.

Using my limited intellectual capacity, I acquired proof of God's existence this way: Can LIFE come from non-living or inorganic thing? I say NO. It is impossible for life to proceed from non-living/inorganic thing. Scientists have never yet demonstrated that it can be done. If so, Life must have come from something which has life of itself. This ultimate and Primary source of life I call God.

History confirmed the truth of God's existence.

It is recorded in World History that Jesus Christ truly physically existed. And who is Jesus Christ? According to John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Then in John 1:14, "The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The one and only Son mentioned there is no other than Jesus Christ. Therefore, we have seen God in the person of Jesus Christ. He is main visible proof of God's existence. Unfortunately, to accept Jesus Christ as such is a gift from God Himself. That is acquired by Faith.

mbb
08-26-2007, 04:52 PM
For me, FAITH and REASON compliment each other in knowing the truth. There are truths which for the time being man is unable to reach by reason. Those truths can be reached by faith. Faith is the result of revealed truths which may at a time could not be fathomed by man's limited intellectual power. But those who posses higher intellectual power may be able to grasp them intellectually.They may be lucky for having that intellectual power.

Using my limited intellectual capacity, I acquired proof of God's existence this way: Can LIFE come from non-living or inorganic thing? I say NO. It is impossible for life to proceed from non-living/inorganic thing. Scientists have never yet demonstrated that it can be done. If so, Life must have come from something which has life of itself. This ultimate and Primary source of life I call God.

History confirmed the truth of God's existence.

It is recorded in World History that Jesus Christ truly physically existed. And who is Jesus Christ? According to John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Then in John 1:14, "The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The one and only Son mentioned there is no other than Jesus Christ. Therefore, we have seen God in the person of Jesus Christ. He is main visible proof of God's existence. Unfortunately, to accept Jesus Christ as such is a gift from God Himself. That is acquired by Faith.

WELL SAID AGTA! PRAISE GOD AND KEEP THE FAITH..

acpatagnan
09-02-2007, 07:23 PM
Let us clarify things here objectively. What is faith? What is reason? What do you use in acquiring knowledge? Faith or Reason? Science (a vast body of knowledge) uses reason in arriving the knowledge about reality. It is through science that make man what we are today-prosperous, efficient and life is enjoyable. In comparison, by using faith, the medieval period and the dark ages is the recorded historical evidence of the result of using faith-ignorance, poverty, suffering and life was stagnant.

Faith and reason are opposite. They do not compliment each other in acquiring knowledge. Reason is based on the observable real world, while faith is based on nothing but on just feeling, emotionally accepting without any question about proof or evidence.

The bible was a written literature and was written by man. Anything that are man-made are subject to questions and evaluation. The bible is not the proof that God exist. It is also the proof that the alleged God hates the man's mind. The legendary story about Adam and Eve who were banned from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Why does God banned them from eating THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE? Why use tree of knowledge, and not guava tree, mango tree, apple tree or any existing tree? This is the proof that FAITH IS AGAINST REASON.

acpatagnan
09-02-2007, 07:34 PM
If Jesus Christ, who was believed to be God, a man, therefore we are all god. In short, man is the proof of that alleged God. Man is the only being that is observable.

Then next question is what is the philosophy behind Jesus Christ.

agta
09-02-2007, 07:47 PM
If Jesus Christ, who was believed to be God, a man, therefore we are all god. In short, man is the proof of that alleged God. Man is the only being that is observable.

Then next question is what is the philosophy behind Jesus Christ.
You should present your side first. Just what do you mean by that question? Is there indeed a philosophy behind Jesus Christ?

I don't see logic to the conclusion that "we are all god". Reason follows the rules of correct thinking. But as I see it, the owner of this thread seems not even know the science of correct thinking.

agta
09-02-2007, 08:02 PM
Let us clarify things here objectively. What is faith? What is reason? What do you use in acquiring knowledge? Faith or Reason? Science (a vast body of knowledge) uses reason in arriving the knowledge about reality. It is through science that make man what we are today-prosperous, efficient and life is enjoyable. In comparison, by using faith, the medieval period and the dark ages is the recorded historical evidence of the result of using faith-ignorance, poverty, suffering and life was stagnant.

Faith and reason are opposite. They do not compliment each other in acquiring knowledge. Reason is based on the observable real world, while faith is based on nothing but on just feeling, emotionally accepting without any question about proof or evidence.

The bible was a written literature and was written by man. Anything that are man-made are subject to questions and evaluation. The bible is not the proof that God exist. It is also the proof that the alleged God hates the man's mind. The legendary story about Adam and Eve who were banned from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Why does God banned them from eating THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE? Why use tree of knowledge, and not guava tree, mango tree, apple tree or any existing tree? This is the proof that FAITH IS AGAINST REASON.
Are you sure it is through science that make man what we are today - prosperous, efficient and life is enjoyable? For me, that declaration is out of reason and is itself unscientific. Look, who is the brightest scientist ever who has demonstrated to the world that life could be produced from purely non-living/inorganic thing?

As I said, faith and reason compliment each other in "acquiring knowledge". You will never understand what is the meaning of faith until you have it in yourself. So, it is like boxing the stars of heaven when a person who does not have faith try to speak as if he knows what is faith.

acpatagnan
09-03-2007, 11:44 AM
Jesus was a Jew by nationality. Yes he existed based on historical record. This is a proof that he was physically a man. Now what is the idea or philosophy of Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ taught altruism and mysticism. Altruism meaning the dying for others. As the story shows that he was crucified because the Jew did not believe him as the son of God. He professed to be god which they did not accepted.

What is faith? What is reason? It is clearly accepted by religious leaders that faith is believing on something without any proof or evidence. Faith is just believing without any question asked for proof. Compare it to reason. Reason is the faculty of knowing that which exist. It is man's tool of acquiring knowledge about reality. Can you acquire knowledge about the solar system by means of faith. The church in the early days believed that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and other planets revolved around. They accepted it by faith without any questions about the proof. When Galileo declared the it is the sun that is the center of galaxy and the earth revolved around it he was persecuted and even killed.

Reason is based on observable reality. Let your mind do it. Science brought us this computer wherein we can communicate. Can faith do it? Faith brought man to medieval and dark periods. That is a historical facts. This is only one proof that faith and reason are opposite. Faith is to supernaturalism and mysticism while reason is to objective natural reality.

Jeff
09-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Jesus was a Jew by nationality. Yes he existed based on historical record. This is a proof that he was physically a man. Now what is the idea or philosophy of Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ taught altruism and mysticism. Altruism meaning the dying for others. As the story shows that he was crucified because the Jew did not believe him as the son of God. He professed to be god which they did not accepted.

What is faith? What is reason? It is clearly accepted by religious leaders that faith is believing on something without any proof or evidence.

< I dont believe you, if you only read the bible you will not say this things. Don't you know that most of the apostles ddidn't immediately believed that Christ is the messiah? It took Christ to create miracles before they believed and have faith to HIM. Even in the old testmament, Moises took effort of creating miracles in order for his fellow men to believe and have faith in GOD.>

Faith is just believing without any question asked for proof. :confused: Compare it to reason. Reason is the faculty of knowing that which exist. It is man's tool of acquiring knowledge about reality. Can you acquire knowledge about the solar system by means of faith. The church in the early days believed that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and other planets revolved around.

<Don't you know that most of the astronomers, scientist, mathematicians, and even evolutionist started their works through faiths/belief and dreams? Science dont just sprouted anywhere, there are always basis and most of it is from their beliefs/faith and their dreams> Hindi mag lalakas loob ang mga scientist, matheticians name all kinds of nerds kung wala silang paniniwala. Kasi yang lang ang nagbibigay ng lakas ng loob para magampanan nila ang kanilang minimithi to prove something. Faith/belief sparks science>.

They accepted it by faith without any questions about the proof. When Galileo declared the it is the sun that is the center of galaxy and the earth revolved around it he was persecuted and even killed.

Reason is based on observable reality. Let your mind do it. Science brought us this computer wherein we can communicate. Can faith do it? Faith brought man to medieval and dark periods. That is a historical facts. This is only one proof that faith and reason are opposite. Faith is to supernaturalism and mysticism while reason is to objective natural reality.

And lastly, I would like to ask you. Do you believed in GOD?, If you don't, who made you? So if you dont believed in the creation of man, then answer this ano ang nauna ITLOG O MANOK? Please give me your reason kung ano dapat mauna.

agta
09-04-2007, 02:02 AM
Quoted Acpatagnan:
"It is clearly accepted by religious leaders that faith is believing on something without any proof or evidence
Faith brought man to medieval and dark periods. That is a historical facts. This is only one proof that faith and reason are opposite."

Comment:
No, that is not true faith. You have probably taken out of context the religious leader you are refering to. For Faith, accrding to St. Paul in Heb 11.1 is "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that are not seen."

It was not faith that brought man to medieval and dark periods. On the contrary, it was absence of faith that brought them to darkness.

echo101
09-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by acpatagnan
THE QUESTIONS ARE HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT GOD EXIST? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS SUCH THING AS CREATOR? WHO CREATED THE CREATOR? THOSE ARE QUESTION THAT MAN MUST KNOW EXACTLY? ARE YOU AFRAID ABOUT DISCUSSING IT? What is the tool in knowing those things or answering those questins?
Have you imagine living your life without any religion?

What a pathetic, silly question! "THOSE ARE QUESTION THAT MAN MUST KNOW EXACTLY" I disagree, ito ang mga questions na hindi na dapat natin iniintindi. Ano ba nman ang mapapala natin kung malaman natin kung paano sya naging Diyos? Maililigtas ba tau nun? i don't think so.. God will not judge us by our knowledge.. God did not created man to question Him how He came to be. Instead, we should focus our concerns and priorities on building a personal relationship with God, start investing on our heavenly life with Him. DO YOU HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM? I think that's the big question that we have to ask ourselves. Faith does not require proofs.. Faith can stand on its own.. I give my applause to agta, very well said..

Jeff
09-04-2007, 03:21 PM
Deu 10:17 Sapagka't ang Panginoon ninyong Dios, ay siyang Dios ng mga dios, at Panginoon ng mga panginoon, siyang dakilang Dios, siyang makapangyarihan at siyang kakilakilabot, na hindi nagtatangi ng tao ni tumatanggap ng suhol.

acpatagnan
09-04-2007, 09:11 PM
The questions: What do you know? How do you know? are epistemological enquiry. This is the nature of man's mind-to know things that exist. What is the function of the mind? Man's consciousness, his mind, is the tool of knowing that which exist. We need knowledge for the purpose of living our own individual life here on earth. To obtain food we need knowledge how to plant and produce. We need knowledge on how to support our own life. How? Man is equiped with a faculty of congnition-the mind, reason and the method is logic. Science is the product of that tools man have. Science is a vast knowledge of man about existence and reality.

Now, if God is part of human knowledge, then how do we acquired it? How do we know that God exist? This is not a pathetic question. This is also knowing what we allegedly know what. The answers that many people get are from others, like parents, teachers, religious leaders and philosophers and the document they usually present is the bible and the Koran. The bible and Koran are literatures written by men. Anything that are man made are subject to questions and objective evaluation.

Using reason, in knowing the existence of God, the result is that God do not exist. The word God has no basis in reality we live. No observable identity that man can be aware of. In short, no evidence or proof to present the claim by the religion.

How can you have a relationship to someone or something that do not exist?
To know something is to believe it. To know is to see and to see is to believe. How do you know? By means of reason. By reason there is no God therefore I don't believe in God.

Now what is FAITH? What exactly is faith? Faith is exactly equivalent to feelings, emotion, imagination and fantasy. Feelings and emotions are not tools of cognition or knowledge. Logically, believing in God is just a fantasy or imagination.

crisia
09-04-2007, 09:15 PM
http://photos-340.friendster.com/e1/photos/04/34/26014340/1_849391538l.jpg
pEace p0h!..hehe:) ;)

acpatagnan
09-04-2007, 09:46 PM
Hello Crisia.

Ikaw ba yan talaga sa picture? Beautiful. Nasa Biliran ka ba? Well, anyway... just curious about you.

My objective here is to stimulate thinking. Just like our muscle, when we exercise our muscle grows big and sturdy. When we use our mind, our thinking, our reason, it will also grow big and sturdy also. You will learned more how to defend yourself by using reason.

Exchanging views is not asking for trouble or fight even thought we differ.

Jeff
09-05-2007, 09:28 AM
Hello Crisia.

Ikaw ba yan talaga sa picture? Beautiful. Nasa Biliran ka ba? Well, anyway... just curious about you.

My objective here is to stimulate thinking. Just like our muscle, when we exercise our muscle grows big and sturdy. When we use our mind, our thinking, our reason, it will also grow big and sturdy also. You will learned more how to defend yourself by using reason.

Exchanging views is not asking for trouble or fight even thought we differ.


READ THE BIBLE AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW!

agta
09-06-2007, 06:23 AM
The questions: What do you know? How do you know? are epistemological enquiry. This is the nature of man's mind-to know things that exist. What is the function of the mind? Man's consciousness, his mind, is the tool of knowing that which exist. We need knowledge for the purpose of living our own individual life here on earth. To obtain food we need knowledge how to plant and produce. We need knowledge on how to support our own life. How? Man is equiped with a faculty of congnition-the mind, reason and the method is logic. Science is the product of that tools man have. Science is a vast knowledge of man about existence and reality.

Now, if God is part of human knowledge, then how do we acquired it? How do we know that God exist? This is not a pathetic question. This is also knowing what we allegedly know what. The answers that many people get are from others, like parents, teachers, religious leaders and philosophers and the document they usually present is the bible and the Koran. The bible and Koran are literatures written by men. Anything that are man made are subject to questions and objective evaluation.

Using reason, in knowing the existence of God, the result is that God do not exist. The word God has no basis in reality we live. No observable identity that man can be aware of. In short, no evidence or proof to present the claim by the religion.

How can you have a relationship to someone or something that do not exist?
To know something is to believe it. To know is to see and to see is to believe. How do you know? By means of reason. By reason there is no God therefore I don't believe in God.

Now what is FAITH? What exactly is faith? Faith is exactly equivalent to feelings, emotion, imagination and fantasy. Feelings and emotions are not tools of cognition or knowledge. Logically, believing in God is just a fantasy or imagination.
Yes, I agree that anything man made are subject to questions and objective evaluation. But how about those that are not man made, would you not subject them to evaluation too?

Life is all around us.You are aware that life exist, aren't you? So, let us evaluate life itself. Who made life? Can life come forth from purely non-living/inorganic thing? You seem to ignore this basic question that I raised. Are you afraid to face the truth that reason would present to you? And in your answer, don't give only unproven theories, for then they would simply be opinions too.

acpatagnan
09-06-2007, 01:26 PM
To Agta:

Existence is a wide concept. It includes all things that are observable and discoverable: living and non-living. It also include the man-made. The man-made does not exist before. Because of his (man) creativity by transforming the natural thing, a new form of thing now existed. Thanks to his power, the power of thinking.

The natural things, the universe are there. They existed. Man, his consciousness, his mind, also existed. The function of the mind is to grasp that which exist. To know that existence. What for? For his own benefit-the survival of his life. The natural thing are there to be discovered and to know and grasp its nature. What for? To be transformed according to the needs, goals and objective of man. The natural things are there and we cannot question its existence. What man can do is to accept and obey it in order to command it. Meaning study its nature (accept) in order to manipulate, transform (command) to satisfy mans' need-the survival of his life.

Now the question, who created life is the same question of who created the universe (the natural things). The origin of the universe is still in the process of knowing and discovering. The idea of evolution is one. This is the result of the logical reasoning of the mind based on the given facts of the natural things discovered.

Life is here or there. It exist. No one created it. Matter-cannot be created nor be destroyed. It only changes its form.

On the side of religion , they declared that God created the universe. Based on this premise, if God created the universe then who created God? Who created the God that created the God that created the universe. This is endless and regressive and useless. It is absurd. But it is answered and accepted by FAITH according to religion. You have just to believe it though no proof or evidence. What does it implies? What is the effect? Man's mind, its process of cognition is sobotage or assaulted or insulted. The nature of man's mind is denied and abrogated and attacked.

TO JEFF,

The bible is not the right source of knowledge. It is just a man-made piece of poetic literature. It is the product of man's imagination. And subject to question and evaluation before accepting. Consider the starting book of Genesis: "In the beginning God created..." is a form of fantasy or imagination! Question: Did the writer already existed at that time in order to write a report? How did he know? NO ANSWER. Of course, they will say just believe it. Thus, faith is just a feeling fantasy without any basis to reality.

acpatagnan
09-06-2007, 01:50 PM
TO JEFF,

Your question what came first the egg or the chicken, or sino ang nauna itlog o manok is similar to the question: if god created the universe who created god, who created the god that created the god that created the universe and so on. This is endless without beginning and ending. There must be a starting point. This is philosophical questions. Religion is a kind of philosophy a primitive form of philosophy(Faith). And there is alternataive to the philosophy of religion which is reason-the philosophy of objectivism.

Jeff
09-07-2007, 08:51 AM
To Agta:

Existence is a wide concept. It includes all things that are observable and discoverable: living and non-living. It also include the man-made. The man-made does not exist before. Because of his (man) creativity by transforming the natural thing, a new form of thing now existed. Thanks to his power, the power of thinking.

The natural things, the universe are there. They existed. Man, his consciousness, his mind, also existed. The function of the mind is to grasp that which exist. To know that existence. What for? For his own benefit-the survival of his life. The natural thing are there to be discovered and to know and grasp its nature. What for? To be transformed according to the needs, goals and objective of man. The natural things are there and we cannot question its existence. What man can do is to accept and obey it in order to command it. Meaning study its nature (accept) in order to manipulate, transform (command) to satisfy mans' need-the survival of his life.

Now the question, who created life is the same question of who created the universe (the natural things). The origin of the universe is still in the process of knowing and discovering. The idea of evolution is one. This is the result of the logical reasoning of the mind based on the given facts of the natural things discovered.

Life is here or there. It exist. No one created it. Matter-cannot be created nor be destroyed. It only changes its form.

On the side of religion , they declared that God created the universe. Based on this premise, if God created the universe then who created God? Who created the God that created the God that created the universe. This is endless and regressive and useless. It is absurd. But it is answered and accepted by FAITH according to religion. You have just to believe it though no proof or evidence. What does it implies? What is the effect? Man's mind, its process of cognition is sobotage or assaulted or insulted. The nature of man's mind is denied and abrogated and attacked.

TO JEFF,

The bible is not the right source of knowledge. It is just a man-made piece of poetic literature. It is the product of man's imagination. And subject to question and evaluation before accepting. Consider the starting book of Genesis: "In the beginning God created..." is a form of fantasy or imagination! Question: Did the writer already existed at that time in order to write a report? How did he know? NO ANSWER. Of course, they will say just believe it. Thus, faith is just a feeling fantasy without any basis to reality.

Then I am sorry to say you are the most miserable person ive ever known, no one owns you, no one created you, but you are just like a freak just sprouted to know where. But anyway, one of these days you will be calling the name of GOD.

luther
09-07-2007, 10:56 AM
Hahaha...in other words para cyang kabote...

agta
09-08-2007, 07:14 AM
Quote from Acpatagnan:
"The natural thing are there to be discovered and to know and grasp its nature. What for? To be transformed according to the needs, goals and objective of man. The natural things are there and we cannot question its existence. What man can do is to accept and obey it in order to command it. Meaning study its nature (accept) in order to manipulate, transform (command) to satisfy mans' need-the survival of his life."

Comment:
Your statements contradict each other: "The natural things are there to be discovered and to know and grasp its nature.", but then, "we canot question its existence."?
(You want to keep your cake but eat it too!)
You questioned the existence of God. But you wish to prohibit us from questioning the existence of nature? You simply seem intellectually inconsistent and evasive, not to say dishonest to yourself.

Everything we perceive has a beginning. Life has an ultimate and primary beginning. Do not fool yourself. Just answer the question. Can life come forth from purely inorganic/non-living thing? If yes, prove it! If no, then who or what is its primary and ultimate beginning?

That primary and ultimate beginning is what I call GOD. That is the intellectual basis of my belief in God, if intellectual basis is what you want to know. But you, what is your intellectual basis for not believing in God? Be careful in your statements because it is a serious dishonor to you that you contradict yourself just to insist in denying the truth of God's existence.

agta
09-08-2007, 08:44 AM
TO JEFF,

Your question what came first the egg or the chicken, or sino ang nauna itlog o manok is similar to the question: if god created the universe who created god, who created the god that created the god that created the universe and so on. This is endless without beginning and ending. There must be a starting point. This is philosophical questions. Religion is a kind of philosophy a primitive form of philosophy(Faith). And there is alternataive to the philosophy of religion which is reason-the philosophy of objectivism.
And what do you mean by Philosophy of Objectivism?
I'm sure you believe in numbers. But have you seen a number? Or have you not seen only a figure or something made to represent a number but not the number itself. But how sure are you that numbers exist?

acpatagnan
09-08-2007, 11:49 AM
To question the natural things is to know its nature, its characteristics. How? By observations, by the use of our mind. And the resulting product is science-the vast knowledge about reality. To question for its origin, I have already stated that man is still in the process of knowing and discovering. And the idea of evolution is one.

How do you know by means of reason, by means of the mind that God is the creator? There is no proof or evidence for the mind to observed its identity.

How do you know that God exist? If mind is our tools of knowing things? How does our mind functions, what is its function, how does mind operates? You have to answer this first. This is not fully or completely and explicitly taught in high school and even in college.

Finally, you have to distinguish between FAITH AND REASON. What is faith? What is reason?

I will tell you what is reason. Man's mind, his reasoning mind, is his tool of knowledge. The wide concept is consciousness. Consciousness covers our sense organ, the brain, perception, and the mind. The process of reason includes the method of logic. How do you know facts of reality, TRUTH? The question is how? By means of reason (mind).


What is faith? I will tell you that faith is accepting and believing something without any proof or evidences that are observable by our senses and our mind. In the final analysis, faith could only mean feelings, emotions, intuition, revelation, imagination and even fantasy.

I stated that my objective here is to stimulate thinking. Reasoning in the purest sense-wherein your mind exerting an effort to know. Let us put aside any feelings, emotions. just pure cold thinking, reasoning mind. In other word to be objective.

Now questions must be answered purely by reason connected to the facts of reality. What is real? What is reality? What is truth? How do you know??? What is your tools, method?

This is philosophy in the deepest sense. Religion is a form of philosophy!!!

papa
09-08-2007, 11:33 PM
"This is philosophy in the deepest sense. Religion is a form of philosophy!!"

I've followed, or tried to follow this thread. acpatagnan, did you recently read some books by Ayn Rand? I understand what your saying, but as an old woman said after a discussion about how the earth go around the sun and what does the earth travel on , it's turtles all the way down! Here is a link to youtube videos about creation versus evolution, given by an american Professor, a Roman Catholic, after he was called into court about a legal issue about high school textbooks. It's very interesting, but he does not say there is no God, just to keep an open mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

agta
09-09-2007, 05:41 AM
To question the natural things is to know its nature, its characteristics. How? By observations, by the use of our mind. And the resulting product is science-the vast knowledge about reality. To question for its origin, I have already stated that man is still in the process of knowing and discovering. And the idea of evolution is one.

How do you know by means of reason, by means of the mind that God is the creator? There is no proof or evidence for the mind to observed its identity.

How do you know that God exist? If mind is our tools of knowing things? How does our mind functions, what is its function, how does mind operates? You have to answer this first. This is not fully or completely and explicitly taught in high school and even in college.

Finally, you have to distinguish between FAITH AND REASON. What is faith? What is reason?

I will tell you what is reason. Man's mind, his reasoning mind, is his tool of knowledge. The wide concept is consciousness. Consciousness covers our sense organ, the brain, perception, and the mind. The process of reason includes the method of logic. How do you know facts of reality, TRUTH? The question is how? By means of reason (mind).


What is faith? I will tell you that faith is accepting and believing something without any proof or evidences that are observable by our senses and our mind. In the final analysis, faith could only mean feelings, emotions, intuition, revelation, imagination and even fantasy.

I stated that my objective here is to stimulate thinking. Reasoning in the purest sense-wherein your mind exerting an effort to know. Let us put aside any feelings, emotions. just pure cold thinking, reasoning mind. In other word to be objective.

Now questions must be answered purely by reason connected to the facts of reality. What is real? What is reality? What is truth? How do you know??? What is your tools, method?

This is philosophy in the deepest sense. Religion is a form of philosophy!!!
As I already said, your definition of faith is wrong! For to me, Jesus Christ is the evidence or proof of such belief. I believe because Jesus Christ is true.
I don't agree that to question natural things should not include questioning its origin. For to do so would not be fair to science and man.
Evolution, you should know, has long been proven to be false as regards the origin of man. Just accept that reality, and don't insist on stupidity.
Yes, you have stimulated thinking. But it's sad that you don't show honesty to your own mind. There is a point that your mind must admit its limit. But yours would not accept that fact even if it could no longer answer the question.
I stated to you the intellectual basis of my belief in the existence of God. That ultimate and primary source of life is what I call God. If you would call it another name, it would not matter to me. The fact remains that there is such Ultimate and Primary Source of Life and I call him God.
You have not shown your intellectual basis for your denial of the existence of God. Denial is not enough. You should prove it anyway you can, or demonstrate that life does not exist.

acpatagnan
09-12-2007, 12:16 PM
To Agta,

It is not clear of what is your definition of faith. You stated that Jesus Christ is the evidence of your belief. The question then is what is your belief about jesus christ. Yes Jesus Christ existed here on earth according to historical record. What is the idea behind Jesus Christ. Where is jesus christ now? What I know is this Jesus Christ proclaimed or declared himself as God or son of God. His nationality was a Jew or Israelites. But most of the people there in Jesuralem considered him as only a prophet (or philosopher in my own consideration). His teachings are the basis of christianity. What is the dominant idea or teaching? Obedience, self-sacrifice(altruism), and supernaturalism.

To question the natural things is to know, to grasp and accept its nature, characteristics, attributes and that is science for the benefit of man. To know its origin is still in the process of knowing and discovering for proof and evidence. There is still no proof or evidence for the origin of natural things (living and non-living). The idea of evolution is just a theory and subject to presenting for proof. Just like faith: theory of creation, is still subject to presenting for proof. AND THERE ARE NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE SO FAR PRESENTED. To religion faith is considered a proof. Is this what you call intellectual?

When you say that the intellectual basis for ... what you meant is reason? Or just feelings or imagination or fantasy? Questions like what is God, what is the identity of God, Is god observable?
You're wrong to say about my DENIAL. Reason: there is nothing to deny any existence and this refers to the supernaturals (God, ghost, demon,fairy,angel,gremlin, shrek,tikbalang, dwende etc). If something exist and then if you do not accept its existence then it is denial. The word exist, EXISTENCE refers to all things that are observable and identifiable. EXISTENCE IS IDENTITY AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS AWARENESS OF THAT EXISTENCE. Every existent has identity (all its characterists, attributes, discovered and yet to be discovered). Consciousness also existed and has identity (all charateristics, attributes) and this refers to all living things (man, animals, plants). The function of consciousness is awareness of that which exist. Man a higher form of consciousness includes his sense organ, his mind, his reason and the function is to aware. to grasp, to know that which exist. A non-existence cannot be conscious of, aware of, grasp or known. It is nothing. And it is not subject to any kind of scientific study. Likewise, logically, the idea of god, result to nothing but just a fantasy or imagination, or floating or stolen idea.

Now the question of the origin, the source either life or no-life (all things) is still unknown or still in the process of knowing and discovering for proof. The processing is reason (consciousness). But on the side of reliigion, they had already CONCLUDED that the origin is a supernatural being (God, Allah, Bathala or any other name) BY WHAT MEANS: by FAITH. And faith is believing, accepting without any proof or evidence. According to religion, the proof of the existence of supernatural being is not important. What is important to them is you just have to believe it, though no proof or evidence.

There is a BIG difference between reason and faith, between mind and feelings.

By means of reason: The existence of God has no proof or evidence. Therefore, God does not exist. How does man got hold of this word god? It is a word that represent nothing in particular that can be observed, indentify, aware, grasp, known; thus it is just an imagination, fantasy (mind is very capable of doing it).

Finally, the thread: LIVING A LIFE WITHOUT RELIGION, ...GOOD OR BAD? RIGHT OR WRONG? The anwser is good, right and I have a reason to present as briefly as possible.

agta
09-12-2007, 08:11 PM
To Agta,

It is not clear of what is your definition of faith. You stated that Jesus Christ is the evidence of your belief. The question then is what is your belief about jesus christ. Yes Jesus Christ existed here on earth according to historical record. What is the idea behind Jesus Christ. Where is jesus christ now? What I know is this Jesus Christ proclaimed or declared himself as God or son of God. His nationality was a Jew or Israelites. But most of the people there in Jesuralem considered him as only a prophet (or philosopher in my own consideration). His teachings are the basis of christianity. What is the dominant idea or teaching? Obedience, self-sacrifice(altruism), and supernaturalism.

To question the natural things is to know, to grasp and accept its nature, characteristics, attributes and that is science for the benefit of man. To know its origin is still in the process of knowing and discovering for proof and evidence. There is still no proof or evidence for the origin of natural things (living and non-living). The idea of evolution is just a theory and subject to presenting for proof. Just like faith: theory of creation, is still subject to presenting for proof. AND THERE ARE NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE SO FAR PRESENTED. To religion faith is considered a proof. Is this what you call intellectual?

When you say that the intellectual basis for ... what you meant is reason? Or just feelings or imagination or fantasy? Questions like what is God, what is the identity of God, Is god observable?
You're wrong to say about my DENIAL. Reason: there is nothing to deny any existence and this refers to the supernaturals (God, ghost, demon,fairy,angel,gremlin, shrek,tikbalang, dwende etc). If something exist and then if you do not accept its existence then it is denial. The word exist, EXISTENCE refers to all things that are observable and identifiable. EXISTENCE IS IDENTITY AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS AWARENESS OF THAT EXISTENCE. Every existent has identity (all its characterists, attributes, discovered and yet to be discovered). Consciousness also existed and has identity (all charateristics, attributes) and this refers to all living things (man, animals, plants). The function of consciousness is awareness of that which exist. Man a higher form of consciousness includes his sense organ, his mind, his reason and the function is to aware. to grasp, to know that which exist. A non-existence cannot be conscious of, aware of, grasp or known. It is nothing. And it is not subject to any kind of scientific study. Likewise, logically, the idea of god, result to nothing but just a fantasy or imagination, or floating or stolen idea.

Now the question of the origin, the source either life or no-life (all things) is still unknown or still in the process of knowing and discovering for proof. The processing is reason (consciousness). But on the side of reliigion, they had already CONCLUDED that the origin is a supernatural being (God, Allah, Bathala or any other name) BY WHAT MEANS: by FAITH. And faith is believing, accepting without any proof or evidence. According to religion, the proof of the existence of supernatural being is not important. What is important to them is you just have to believe it, though no proof or evidence.

There is a BIG difference between reason and faith, between mind and feelings.

By means of reason: The existence of God has no proof or evidence. Therefore, God does not exist. How does man got hold of this word god? It is a word that represent nothing in particular that can be observed, indentify, aware, grasp, known; thus it is just an imagination, fantasy (mind is very capable of doing it).

Finally, the thread: LIVING A LIFE WITHOUT RELIGION, ...GOOD OR BAD? RIGHT OR WRONG? The anwser is good, right and I have a reason to present as briefly as possible.
Let me make myself clearer to you. You are aware that life exists. Let us by-pass concerns of the origin of plants and animals and go directly to the undeniable fact of LIFE itself. The question I want you to answer is this: Where did life come from? Can life come forth from purely non-living/inorganic thing? Science has already proven that LIFE can never come forth from purely non-living/inorganic thing and, more so, it could never come forth from nothing or nowhere. Therefore, by the use of reason, it follows that life must have come forth from something which by itself is self-sustaining, independent of any other. That is an unavoidable conclusion. Now, what shall you call that self-sustaining, independent LIFE?
I call that GOD.

And how do you expect God to reveal himself to you as a person? Do you expect him to reveal to you in His glorious state? If He would do so, do you think you would survive in His presence? No, you would not survive in His presence. That is why He revealed Himself in a humble state. And in His humble state, He did wonders that no man could replicate. He brought the dead back to life, He cured the sick in a way that no doctor could cure. Those wonders that he performed are historical records. And finally, He rose back to life from death and returned to where He was before. He just gave men the proof that He truly exists. And that proof is the basis of modern faith. Yes, people have observed him, but many did not believe he was God. If you couldn't believe He was God, then what else shall you believe if God should show himself to you?

Jeff
09-13-2007, 08:50 AM
Let me make myself clearer to you. You are aware that life exists. Let us by-pass concerns of the origin of plants and animals and go directly to the undeniable fact of LIFE itself. The question I want you to answer is this: Where did life come from? Can life come forth from purely non-living/inorganic thing? Science has already proven that LIFE can never come forth from purely non-living/inorganic thing and, more so, it could never come forth from nothing or nowhere. Therefore, by the use of reason, it follows that life must have come forth from something which by itself is self-sustaining, independent of any other. That is an unavoidable conclusion. Now, what shall you call that self-sustaining, independent LIFE?
I call that GOD.

And how do you expect God to reveal himself to you as a person? Do you expect him to reveal to you in His glorious state? If He would do so, do you think you would survive in His presence? No, you would not survive in His presence. That is why He revealed Himself in a humble state. And in His humble state, He did wonders that no man could replicate. He brought the dead back to life, He cured the sick in a way that no doctor could cure. Those wonders that he performed are historical records. And finally, He rose back to life from death and returned to where He was before. He just gave men the proof that He truly exists. And that proof is the basis of modern faith. Yes, people have observed him, but many did not believe he was God. If you couldn't believe He was God, then what else shall you believe if God should show himself to you?

MAYBE he wants to emphasize that humans and other living things in general are just purely product hatched from the egg. The question now, where the egg came from?

agta
09-13-2007, 07:41 PM
MAYBE he wants to emphasize that humans and other living things in general are just purely product hatched from the egg. The question now, where the egg came from?
Yes, that is truly a serious question. Even the life that is within that egg could never have come from that egg itself. Correct use of reason could not escape but, in the correct reasoning process, to ultimately surrender to a self-sustaining, independent LIFE.

zarahemla
09-13-2007, 08:46 PM
The question "What is God?" has baffled humankind for eons and will continue to defy logical understanding as long as we live with the concept that there is a heaven up above, where God sits judging all of humanity and punishing those who misbehave. Eminent people throughout history have tried to find a logical answer to this vexing question, with little success

acpatagnan
09-14-2007, 04:17 PM
The question "What is God" is the same question as Does God exist? This question can be answered by using our mind, our consciousness. As I said the function of the mind is to know. And the basis of knowing is the reality-the real concrete observable world.

"Existnce exists--and the act of grasping that statement implies two corollary axioms: that something exists which one perceives and that one exist possessing consciousness, consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exist."

"To exist is to be something,as distinguished from the nothing of non-existence. It is to be an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes. A IS A, Existence is identity. Consciousness is identification.

Man is a complex highest form of living organism. Life is self-sustaining (as Agta stated). Man is a self-sustaining living organism. Logically, if Life is called God, therefore, MAN IS GOD. And this can be said also to the lower lever of living organism such as animals and plants. In other words any life here on Earth is called God.

What is exactly the definition of God? Unknown. None. Anything that cannot be indentify do not exist. It is nothing. And the question of the origin of life, of the universe is still in the process of knowing and discovering the proof or evidence. Some scientist gave some statement but there is no proof or evidence.

The theory of creation, to simplify it, is liken to a magician waving his wand and viola there appears the universe and the earth. That is magic. And magic is a form of fantasy and imagination.

The theory of evolution, to simplify, its like a very long process of evolving from one form to another. This ideas are observable in the nature as discovered by some scientist.

Now which do you prefer? The first is accepted by faith. The latter is by reason, consciousness.


The question: which comes first the egg or the chicken. By observation eggs came from chicken and chcken from egg. This is similar to the question who created the universe-God. Then who created God-God no 2. then who created god no.2. God no.3? and this is endless. This is absurd and pointless. There must be a starting point. This is abstraction. concept formation. The starting point is EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, IDENTITY. This is philosophy. Religion is a form of philosophy.

zarahemla
09-14-2007, 07:30 PM
To know God, you must walk in the light of life. To know God as a living child of God, we should know our relationship to him, our divine potential, and we should know that in knowing God there is great responsibility to respect and love and follow his counsel and his doctrines and his commandments and to grow as a child to become more godlike.

Jesus Christ gave this commandment and important counsel by revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said: “… ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.

“Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

“For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments. …” (D&C 46:7–9.)

We must always keep in mind that God’s greatest gift is eternal life. Eternal life comes from knowing God and from knowing Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” (D&C 6:13.)

The central and basic principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is love. He laid the basis of human brotherhood in love. It begins in God’s infinite love for his children, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16.)

As is mentioned by the Savior, to know God means to keep his commandments. The Lord also gave this in the first and great commandment relative to the importance of keeping his commandments, when we say that we love God. Here is the great commandment on love: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” (Matt. 22:37–38.)

Jesus also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15.)

If we love God, we should keep his commandments. We should love his plan of life. We should love his Only Begotten Son, whom he sent to help us meet life and its problems and to redeem us from death, to make the resurrection and eternal life possible, and to give us the light of life that we may walk in his ways and in the divine light that will lead us to godlike blessings.

acpatagnan
09-16-2007, 02:58 PM
Religion is some kind of philosophy. It is a primitive form of philosophy. And philosophy deals with the nature of things (metaphysics) and how we know this things (epistemology).
Religion refers to all association of individual who believe in supernatural being or things. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, to name a few, all belongs to this category of religion. The common point all have is the belief in supernatural things. In short, FAITH is the dominant factor in contrast to REASON.

Under the christianity, the bible is the source of their teachings, while the Koran is to Islam. Christianity ( one of the many religions), from the beginning has been attacking the mind and the nature of man. Consider the story of Adam & Eve. In that story, God banned them (man) from eating THE FRUITS OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. Since it is in the nature of man's mind to aware, to grasp, to know, that which exist, the alleged God penalized man for eating the fruit of knowledge, for using his mind. In other words, the alleged God do not want man to use his consciousness, his mind, his reason. He wants man to be an obedient robot living in the paradise. What does this implies? What does it mean of the story? IT MEANS HATRED, AN ASSAULT TO THE NATURE OF MAN, his attributes, which is his consciusness.

Since the dominant teaching of religion is FAITH on things that have no evidence or proof, it is an assault to the integrity of man's reason. Faith corrupts and mutilates the very nature of man's tool of cognition, tool of knowledge. Therefore, religion is a mind destroying philosophy. Religion is anti-mind, therefore anti-life.

Living a life without religion is normal to a man who accepted that his consciousness, his mind, his reason is his tool of survival. Putting aside religion, the only way and means of living here on earth is to USE HIS FACULTY OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

TO LOVE IS TO VALUE. To value your self is to love your self--your very nature. What does the Bible teaches? To deny, to sacrifice your mind and eventually die for others either to God or to society (altruism).

I do not meant to attacked religion. What I do is to identify the nature of religion, its idea, its philosophy.

acpatagnan
09-16-2007, 03:19 PM
To Zarahemla,

How can you have a relationship to somebody that do not exist? How can you love or value non-existence, nothing? By what means? Of course your answer is by faith. Faith is fantasy or imagination or feelings. Well, that is your choice-imagination with feeling.

Jeff
09-17-2007, 08:52 AM
To Zarahemla,

How can you have a relationship to somebody that do not exist? How can you love or value non-existence, nothing? By what means? Of course your answer is by faith. Faith is fantasy or imagination or feelings. Well, that is your choice-imagination with feeling.

How do you know or what are your proof that GOD don't exist? If you are an intelligent person, answer it. You are just like an ordinary old pot asking question the existence of a potter....tsk tsk tsk..

agta
09-17-2007, 06:01 PM
Man is a complex highest form of living organism. Life is self-sustaining (as Agta stated). Man is a self-sustaining living organism. Logically, if Life is called God, therefore, MAN IS GOD. And this can be said also to the lower lever of living organism such as animals and plants. In other words any life here on Earth is called God.

What is exactly the definition of God? Unknown. None. Anything that cannot be indentify do not exist. It is nothing. And the question of the origin of life, of the universe is still in the process of knowing and discovering the proof or evidence. Some scientist gave some statement but there is no proof or evidence.

The theory of creation, to simplify it, is liken to a magician waving his wand and viola there appears the universe and the earth. That is magic. And magic is a form of fantasy and imagination.

The theory of evolution, to simplify, its like a very long process of evolving from one form to another. This ideas are observable in the nature as discovered by some scientist.

Now which do you prefer? The first is accepted by faith. The latter is by reason, consciousness.


The question: which comes first the egg or the chicken. By observation eggs came from chicken and chcken from egg. This is similar to the question who created the universe-God. Then who created God-God no 2. then who created god no.2. God no.3? and this is endless. This is absurd and pointless. There must be a starting point. This is abstraction. concept formation. The starting point is EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, IDENTITY. This is philosophy. Religion is a form of philosophy.

First, it is not accurate to say that "Man is a self-sustaining living organism." Why? Because man cannot prevent his death. It is clear that his life is dependent on something.
Therefore, it is not true that he is a self-sustaining living organism.

Second, the fact that the Ultimate/Primary Source of life is called GOD does not logically lead to the conclusion that man is God. Try to present that argument in syllogism form and you will understand what I mean.

The living matertial things that you perceive around you are not life themselve, but they are things that manifest the existence of life. When you see a bulb, do you say that the bulb is electricity? No. The bulb is not electricity itself. The bulb simply manifests the presence of electricty in it.

agta
09-17-2007, 06:11 PM
To Zarahemla,

How can you have a relationship to somebody that do not exist? How can you love or value non-existence, nothing? By what means? Of course your answer is by faith. Faith is fantasy or imagination or feelings. Well, that is your choice-imagination with feeling.

I agree with you, yes, indeed, "How can you have a relationship to somebody that do not exist." Luckily, history have a lot of records where men experienced the goodness and love of God. It was not simple fantasy, feeling or imaginations. Men earnestly called God's holy name, and God answered them. Those events in their lives were the greatest experiment that they ever had. They actually experienced the presence, existence and love of God. And who is Mr. Acpatagnan to question their actual experiences?

zarahemla
09-17-2007, 11:49 PM
to acpatagnan,

have you tried to ask yourself who you reli are? or wer do you came from? wat is the reasons why you are here on earth? dont tell me you dont have any experiences that can prove to you that god do reli exist! We know that Savior to be the Lord Jesus Christ. From many, many experiences over my lifetime, I can truly testify to you that He truly is our Savior; and if the Father is approached in prayer, as His Son has commanded us, doors will open to help us move forward without fear in life. That all men everywhere may come to realize and know the significance of Jesus the Christ, the One chosen before the foundation of the world, is my faith and witness!

Jeff
09-18-2007, 07:55 AM
to acpatagnan,

have you tried to ask yourself who you reli are? or wer do you came from? wat is the reasons why you are here on earth? dont tell me you dont have any experiences that can prove to you that god do reli exist! We know that Savior to be the Lord Jesus Christ. From many, many experiences over my lifetime, I can truly testify to you that He truly is our Savior; and if the Father is approached in prayer, as His Son has commanded us, doors will open to help us move forward without fear in life. That all men everywhere may come to realize and know the significance of Jesus the Christ, the One chosen before the foundation of the world, is my faith and witness!


Zarahemla,

He is just trying to impress how good he is in reasoning. I can sense that he is challenging us to the point of how we reason out his bate. We are being drag to his game. Or maybe he experienced a very tragic trauma that he blamed GOD of what had happened to his life and he can't accept it. Marami akong ka kilala na ganun ang nang yayari. Si Satanas nga kinikilala si Jesus na anak ng Diyos, siya pa... tsk tsk tsk

acpatagnan
09-18-2007, 01:16 PM
To Jeff & Zarahemla,

I am not trying to be anything else but just a simple natural thinking man.

I am. I think. I will. This is my answer.

I am. What does this mean? It means I accepted myself as a man with a nature-attributes and characterests which is common to all men--consciousness (mind, reason, sense organ and logic) Thinking is volitional, meaning, not automatic. You have to exert an effort, a mental effort, to grasp, to know, to analyse and discover that which exist, obsrvable in our surroundings. It is not trying to impress other. It is using what I have by nature- mind. We all have that. It is not automatic to learn, to grasp, to know how our mind works and operates. This is not taught in school--that OUR MIND (REASON) IS MAN'S TOOL OF HIS LIFE, OF HIS SURVIVAL HERE ON EARTH. It is an effort, a choice. This is what I mean for--I THINK. Then I will is my choice. It is a choice to think or not to think. I CHOOSE THINKING-the nature of our tool.

As I said, FAITH IS THE BELIEF IN SUPERNATURAL WITHOUT ANY PROOF OR EVIDENCE. Supernatural refers here to God, angel, satan, demon, ghost. tikbalang, manananggal, aswang, fairy, etc. These are all fantasies and imaginations. NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE in our real concrete world we live in. Many can create a story experiencing those things. What you are talking about experience with those supernaturals are just imaginations with feelings. In the last analysis, FAITH is just feelings, emotions. Feelings are not tools of cognition, of knowing existence or that which exist.

Living things are different from non-living things. Living things refers to man, animals and plants. Living things are conscious. They all have consciousness. Man is the highest form of consciousness compare to animals and plants. The main concern of living things is to live or else they will die. Of course, it is natural for living things to die evenntually in comparision to non-living things or inanimate things. Inanimate/non-living organism do not need to exert effort to live for the reason they don't have consciousness or life. Animals have also consciousness but of lower level up to sense perception only while the plants are much of lower level. Man has a consciousness of a highest form but it is not automatic. It is volitional. The function of the heart, lungs and stomach are automatic but the mind is not.

To Agta,

How do you know that God is the source of life or the whole universe? You can't even show us proof or evidence. If God is the source then what is the source of God? None! If you use reason--the tool of knowing or knowledge or true reality. According to religion, by faith. there is and this is irrational. Anything irrational is false.


To all,

What is the nature of man?

acpatagnan
09-18-2007, 01:50 PM
How do you know or what are your proof that GOD don't exist? If you are an intelligent person, answer it. You are just like an ordinary old pot asking question the existence of a potter....tsk tsk tsk..

Nothing, none. has no proof or evidence. It is nothing. ANG WALA AY WALA. ANG MAYROON AY MAYROON. A IS A. Existence exist.

It is impossible to show, to give proof of nothing, of non-existing. what you are trying to say is that A can be B. A white can be black. One plus one can be three according to your premise-- NOTHING IS SOMETHING. That is a form of irrationality. That is exactly what religion is teaching. That is the philosophy of Emmanuel Kant or Plato.

Wowie
09-18-2007, 05:56 PM
I think this debate is going out of topic, I hate to say this but I might lock this thread if the next replies questions the existence of our Almighty God.

This thread is about Living a life without religion? Can you imagine it? Good or Evil?
Please keep the replies related about the thread subject :)

zarahemla
09-18-2007, 06:25 PM
We define trust as our firm belief or confidence in the reliability of our faith. It is the confidence we have in God that what He promises He will do, that total confidence in God can be termed, Our Trust in God.
Many today place their trust in tangible entities, such as governments, financial institutions, schools and individuals. To trust in the above are important when balanced with priorities. Even our currency in the United States uses the term, “In God We Trust.” There is however a greater resource in whom we can place our trust, that is, in God and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Today we are being challenged by the world and especially by the opposition to our souls, to place our trust in what we can accomplish, not what God can do but what we can do.
Above everything in life, trusting in God for our spiritual and natural needs gives us the hope and joy of living. If we lose this, we have lost it all. We trust Him for our salvation; we trust Him for the hope we have in eternal life with Christ. God gave His Son that we would be able to once again be in His presence. Jesus came to redeem us to Himself, without any stipulation except as stated in the Book of Mormon; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in the Holy One of Israel.

God could have invalidated His promise because of mankind’s disobedience, but He kept His promise. Trust God and His promises, they are sure and true. Consider some of His wonderful promises that we have believed and trusted:

* He promised He would never destroy the earth again with water.
* He promised Abraham that he would have a great family, even when he was old and had no children.
* He promised the children of Israel that He would deliver them out of Egypt, and their
bondage. The promise may have been a long time coming, but God was faithful.
* He promised them a promised land. And even when they disappointed Him, God was
faithful to His word.
* He promised His people on the land of America that He was going to come into the
world as He promised thousands of years ago. Some people were willing to kill their
brothers over the belief that Christ was going to come into the world. Christ spoke to
reassure Nephi, and said, “tomorrow I will be born.” (God was and is faithful.)



God works today as in the past. God wants us to place our trust in Him and in His Holy Word. He promised that the Gospel would be restored and it was. Some will differ but that does not change God’s promise. God promised that the Tribe of Joseph and the entire House of Israel would be restored. Is anything impossible with God? Has His word ever failed? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that is why we trust Him. He promised us that a peaceful condition will exist on the earth while men and women are living in the flesh. What a wonderful hope the saints of God possess, that a peaceful condition will exist again on the earth as it was in the Garden of Eden.
Today God has commissioned The Church of Jesus Christ to bring the Gospel to all people, in all parts of the world. To accomplish this, we must trust in God that He will fulfill all that He has spoken. We must trust in God for everything we need. We need to depend more on Him and less on our own ability.
Trusting in God extends beyond the spiritual needs we have as individuals and the work of The Church. It embraces every aspect of our lives; our families; our homes; our jobs, and our associations. It needs to be taken into consideration when we take a job, when we take a transfer in The Church and in our jobs; when marrying a mate, when buying a house, and when giving to The Church, etc. This is what God wants from each of us, to place our trust in Him completely for everything!
God never forgets anything, “except our sins.” We can trust Him for that. Trust God to solve your needs, spiritually and temporally and He will never fail you. At the end of your life, He will be faithful and bring you into His glorious kingdom. Only trust Him!!

agta
09-19-2007, 03:50 AM
To Agta,

How do you know that God is the source of life or the whole universe? You can't even show us proof or evidence. If God is the source then what is the source of God? None! If you use reason--the tool of knowing or knowledge or true reality. According to religion, by faith. there is and this is irrational. Anything irrational is false.


To all,

What is the nature of man?
That is how reasoning process goes. Just like the existence of numbers. We must admit that numbers exist although we do not have facility to have physical contact with them for the simple reason that numbers are not persons.
God is similar in the sense that reason must admit that life must have an ultimate/primary source, but different in the sense that He is a person. Being a person man is capable of establishing personal relationship with Him. That relationship was attained and actually experienced by martyrs and saints such that they were ready to be executed just to stand to the truth of their experiences. You, Mr. Acpatagnan, would you be willing to be executed just to affirm a story which you know is false? The saints and the martyrs did not just concoct stories. They confirmed their stories with their sweats, tears and blood.

When we say Ultimate/Primary Source, it means He has no source but Himself. That is what I mean by "Self-sustaining Being".
According to religion faith is irrational? I don't believe you. Maybe your religion of atheism, yes, that is very irrational.
Faith, for your info, is not simply belief. Belief in tikbalang is also faith? You have so many misconceptions. Faith involves trust. That is emphasized by Zarahemla. Without trust, there is no faith. Do men trust in tikbalang? I don't think so.

I don't have to discuss to you what is the nature of man here in this thread or else it would be patently off-topic. Better start a new thread for that purpose.

Jeff
09-19-2007, 07:47 AM
I think this debate is going out of topic, I hate to say this but I might lock this thread if the next replies questions the existence of our Almighty God.

This thread is about Living a life without religion? Can you imagine it? Good or Evil?
Please keep the replies related about the thread subject :)

Wowie, I agree. Lets stop this because this debate has no end. The author wants to challenge only our intellect not to the real issue, because deeply, I can sense he believed there is really GOD. No point of direction, this will only mislead the faith of those people who read it. Walang Katuturan. So better lock this thread.

Wowie
09-19-2007, 10:54 AM
This debate ends here, both parties have explained thier beliefs.

I guess its ok to lock this topic.

Locking topic...