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acpatagnan
09-20-2007, 10:58 AM
This new thread will deals on a topic : religion a certain kind of philosophy.

First, lets us know what philosophy is? Then based on the answer we will know how religion be a kind of philosophy.

What is philosophy?

Generally, philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, of man's relationship to existence. As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertains to everything that exists. In the realm of knowledge, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible.

Based on the above, how can a religion be kind of philosophy?

Let us ask from the side of religion what is their VIEW about the NATURE OF EXISTENCE?
What is their view about the nature of man? What is their view about man's relationship to existence?

Jeff
09-20-2007, 11:39 AM
This new thread will deals on a topic : religion a certain kind of philosophy.

First, lets us know what philosophy is? Then based on the answer we will know how religion be a kind of philosophy.

What is philosophy?

Generally, philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, of man's relationship to existence. As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertains to everything that exists. In the realm of knowledge, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible.

Based on the above, how can a religion be kind of philosophy?

Let us ask from the side of religion what is their VIEW about the NATURE OF EXISTENCE?
What is their view about the nature of man? What is their view about man's relationship to existence?

BETTER YOU ASK MR. WEBSTER.

acpatagnan
09-21-2007, 11:23 AM
We can determind the religious view about the nature of existence, about the nature of man, and the nature of man's relation to existence by reading the Bible. The bible is the literary document of the Christianity-one the many religions of the world. It is stupid and ignorance on the side of Jeff to suggest to look at the Webster. Webster is not a religious books.

Now I repeat what is exactly the view of christianity about the nature of existence (universe), about the nature of man, and the nature of the relationship of man to existence. Any priests or pastors or guru can participate on this forum. Let us take it step by step. REMEMBER: Religion is a certain kind of philosophy. It is actually a form of philosophy-a primitive form of philosophy.

agta
09-21-2007, 09:23 PM
I don't know where you got that kind of definition of the word "philosophy". It does not fit to its true meaning. You seem to simply invent your own definition of it. I think that's the reason why Jeff advised you to look it up in the dictionary first. And in addition, look also for the word "religion" so that we may be talking of the same thing, you might have your own definition of it too.

acpatagnan
09-24-2007, 04:23 AM
Well, what is the conventional meaning of philosophy? Or the dictionary meaning?

What I have stated meaning of philosophy is in simplified general form. To the western culture, philosophy is very wide and have five branches: Metaphysic, epistemology, ethics, politics and esthetics. And they are all interconnected. or integrated in to one whole philosophy.

What I am trying to do is bring philosopphy to our daily practical life to ordinary people to identify its uses. Philosophy is part of human life, of his conscousness, of his mind whether he knows it or not. In other words, all of us in our adult staged acquired philosophy without our knowledge. it is in our subconsciuos mind. Now the purpose of this forum is to identify that. And others can share their knowledge.

Philosophy is a system of knowledge-an integrated system of knowledge. Religion is a form of philosophy. And it is primitive because we can traced it back to the middle ages or dark ages, to the early civilization.

If philosophy has branches like the metaphysics, epistemology, ethic, politics and esthetics, I simplified it in the following forms: the nature of existence or universe or reality under metaphysics (the what), What is the view of religion with regards to the nature of existence, to the nature of man, and of man's relation to existence. How do we know it? In simplified form under epistemology that deals about the knowledge (the how). And ethics is the resulting applications of the above (metaphysics and epistemology)

Then this thread is Religion a form of philosophy? The purpose is to analyze, to identify, if religion is also a form of philosophy, with others participating and contributing their knowledge.

Jeff
09-24-2007, 08:52 AM
Well, what is the conventional meaning of philosophy? Or the dictionary meaning?

What I have stated meaning of philosophy is in simplified general form. To the western culture, philosophy is very wide and have five branches: Metaphysic, epistemology, ethics, politics and esthetics. And they are all interconnected. or integrated in to one whole philosophy.

What I am trying to do is bring philosopphy to our daily practical life to ordinary people to identify its uses. Philosophy is part of human life, of his conscousness, of his mind whether he knows it or not. In other words, all of us in our adult staged acquired philosophy without our knowledge. it is in our subconsciuos mind. Now the purpose of this forum is to identify that. And others can share their knowledge.

Philosophy is a system of knowledge-an integrated system of knowledge. Religion is a form of philosophy. And it is primitive because we can traced it back to the middle ages or dark ages, to the early civilization.

If philosophy has branches like the metaphysics, epistemology, ethic, politics and esthetics, I simplified it in the following forms: the nature of existence or universe or reality under metaphysics (the what), What is the view of religion with regards to the nature of existence, to the nature of man, and of man's relation to existence. How do we know it? In simplified form under epistemology that deals about the knowledge (the how). And ethics is the resulting applications of the above (metaphysics and epistemology)

Then this thread is Religion a form of philosophy? The purpose is to analyze, to identify, if religion is also a form of philosophy, with others participating and contributing their knowledge.

Do you believe that you have spirit?

acpatagnan
09-25-2007, 04:18 PM
To Jeff,

Perhaps that question will connect to the main topic of the thread: Religion a form of Philosophy?

You question is about spirit. The only possible proof of the word "spirit" is our consciousness. our mind. And as I said before that consciousness is an attribute of man. The spirit or the soul is part of the man's nature. Body and spirit. Body here is the physical body parts and the soul or spirit is his consciousness or his mind.



Now my question is what is the religious view about the nature of existence (reality), about the nature of man. and the nature of man's relationship to existence (reality).

The answer to this questions will lead to the conclusion that religion is a form of philosophy.

agta
09-30-2007, 06:45 AM
To Jeff,

Perhaps that question will connect to the main topic of the thread: Religion a form of Philosophy?

You question is about spirit. The only possible proof of the word "spirit" is our consciousness. our mind. And as I said before that consciousness is an attribute of man. The spirit or the soul is part of the man's nature. Body and spirit. Body here is the physical body parts and the soul or spirit is his consciousness or his mind.



Now my question is what is the religious view about the nature of existence (reality), about the nature of man. and the nature of man's relationship to existence (reality).

The answer to this questions will lead to the conclusion that religion is a form of philosophy.
Which branch of Philosophy?

acpatagnan
09-30-2007, 06:09 PM
Let us take up first what is the religious view of existence (reality). Check it out. Reality according to religion as a whole in general is full of miracles. I will give examples taken from the bible: snake that can talk to Eve, a bush that cannot be consumed by fire and it can talk, a human body that turn into salt, stone that turn into bread, water into wine, human that can walk on water. these are only few. What does it mean? It means that reality/ existence is not stable or firm or absolute, it can be change according to the wish of the Consciousness (God). This is simply meant in philosophy A IS NOT A, A can be B.

Another is under religion there are two existence or reality. The present one and the other one when you die.

Is this not the religious view of existence (reality)?

agta
09-30-2007, 08:55 PM
So what branch of philosophy do you think is that? And what is it to you if reality is full of miracles? If you can bring anybody dead from the grave back to life, then I would believe in your questionable philosophy.

hummingbird
09-30-2007, 11:59 PM
We can determind the religious view about the nature of existence, about the nature of man, and the nature of man's relation to existence by reading the Bible. The bible is the literary document of the Christianity-one the many religions of the world. It is stupid and ignorance on the side of Jeff to suggest to look at the Webster. Webster is not a religious books.

Now I repeat what is exactly the view of christianity about the nature of existence (universe), about the nature of man, and the nature of the relationship of man to existence. Any priests or pastors or guru can participate on this forum. Let us take it step by step. REMEMBER: Religion is a certain kind of philosophy. It is actually a form of philosophy-a primitive form of philosophy.

out of curiousity, are you or have you been a student of Theology and or a professor of Philosophy?:cool:

Jeff
10-01-2007, 08:03 AM
To Jeff,

Perhaps that question will connect to the main topic of the thread: Religion a form of Philosophy?

You question is about spirit. The only possible proof of the word "spirit" is our consciousness. our mind. And as I said before that consciousness is an attribute of man. The spirit or the soul is part of the man's nature. Body and spirit. Body here is the physical body parts and the soul or spirit is his consciousness or his mind.



Now my question is what is the religious view about the nature of existence (reality), about the nature of man. and the nature of man's relationship to existence (reality).

The answer to this questions will lead to the conclusion that religion is a form of philosophy.

Answer my question in layman's term, never twist and seek refuge in your out of this world thoughts. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE SPIRIT???

acpatagnan
10-04-2007, 11:58 AM
To Jeff,

Of course, I have a spirit or soul. The spirit in reality is our consciousness, our mind.

I know you will be confused by my statement. According to religion, their view about the man, its nature is that man is made up of body and soul. When man dies his soul or spirit will separated from his body and go somewhere. That is religious belief and no proof or evidence to justify that belief.


To Hummingbird,

No I am not. Just using my thinking. Because, thinking to me is our tool of knowing things. It is our faculty of knowledge. I desired for knowledge about reality, about truth. Many says that the bible, the koran are the documented truth of religion. How about outside religion? Can you find truth apart from religion? How? What is your tool?

To AGTA,

If reality can be full miracles then it is not firm or stable or absolute. Reality now can be subjected to the wishes of anybody else. The result is it will be very hard to distinguished between the man-made from the natural. In this view, your only way of knowing is just believing. Then your action (ethics) is just obey, sacrifice to other.

agta
10-04-2007, 10:40 PM
To AGTA,

If reality can be full miracles then it is not firm or stable or absolute. Reality now can be subjected to the wishes of anybody else. The result is it will be very hard to distinguished between the man-made from the natural. In this view, your only way of knowing is just believing. Then your action (ethics) is just obey, sacrifice to other.

Why? Is there really something physical that is not subject to change? Tell me what that thing is.

That which man can make is "man-made". But hose that man cannot make are "not man-made". Is that really hard for you to distinguish? Or you simply imagine them as hard?

acpatagnan
10-06-2007, 11:28 AM
Not exactly physical, what I mean are the natural laws of things. When we say miracle like for example based on the bible record the bush burning without being consumed or a burning bush that talked, snake that can talk to human, water that turns into wine. They violates the very indentity of natural things. WE could discover the nature of things by means of observations and grasp their characteristics. With the creativity of man, he can transform nature to make his life comfortable. But miracles are not observable in our daily life, miracles that were written in the bible. Talking to other people at the other side of the earth is not a miracle. And compare it to talking to the unknown supernatural being wishing for miracle by praying. This is an example of a view of about the nature of existence. Existence (reality) can be subjected to changes by means of just praying and wishfull believing. This is one of the religious view about existence. This is a form of philosophy.

agta
10-06-2007, 12:15 PM
Not exactly physical, what I mean are the natural laws of things. When we say miracle like for example based on the bible record the bush burning without being consumed or a burning bush that talked, snake that can talk to human, water that turns into wine. They violates the very indentity of natural things. WE could discover the nature of things by means of observations and grasp their characteristics. With the creativity of man, he can transform nature to make his life comfortable. But miracles are not observable in our daily life, miracles that were written in the bible. Talking to other people at the other side of the earth is not a miracle. And compare it to talking to the unknown supernatural being wishing for miracle by praying. This is an example of a view of about the nature of existence. Existence (reality) can be subjected to changes by means of just praying and wishfull believing. This is one of the religious view about existence. This is a form of philosophy.
Yes indeed, reality can be subjected to seemingly unnatural changes, that is, if willed by God. So, then, what branch of philosophy is that if you believe it is a form of philosophy?

So, you are saying now that there are two kinds of reality: one is the reality which is stable and absolute and the other is that which is not stable and absolute, did I understand you right? Or is there really such as what you call a stable and absolute reality?

So what if the bush was burning without being consumed? Was that burning brought about by what you called "praying and wishfull believing"? No, it was not. It just burnt by its own with no one praying for it to burn.

If to you miracles are not observable in daily life, it is to you only. Do not include me in that "our" of yours. For to me, everyday is full of miracles. But do not limit yourself only to the miracles that are recorded in the bible.
Miracles violate the very identity of natural things? That is how you look at it, and you are entitled to your own opinion. But to me, miracles show to man the total identity of natural things. What we can know about the nature of things is limited by the power of our intelligence. Miracles supply the knowledge about those aspects of the nature of things which our naked intelligence could not grasp.

Jeff
10-08-2007, 09:04 AM
I don't think you are right of saying that spirit or soul is our mind. There is no basis for you to say that. In the bible there is plenty of proof. Now if you are saying that its not true of what was written in the bible then you are a man with out soul.

jalmz
12-11-2007, 06:12 PM
philosophy? word of wisdom..

acpatagnan
12-11-2007, 11:09 PM
Philosophy is a system of thought, an integrated system of thought. It can be called in a simple layman language a "mental attitude". A system of thought can be classified into rational or irrational. pro-life or anti-life, or true or false. OBJECTIVE OR SUBJECTIVE.

Religion is a system of thought. A system of thought based on faith and only faith. Faith is believing on something without any evidence or proof. In the early history of man, there were pagans who worshiped extraordinary natural things that had no explanation yet. Like worshiping the sun, fire and thunder and lightnings were some sort of the God is angry. These were the mental perceptions and attitudes of the early man. Unknown things are mysterious, magical as if a supernatural being had done all this things. Reality are subject to the whims of this supernatural being. Supertitions was the fashion of thought.

But as man learns and discovers the power of his MIND, a new set of system of thought developed. In short, Aristotle discover logic and science flourished. His philosophy is based basically on reason which is contrary to Plato. For Plato's idea was the beginning of the religious system of thought. To simplify the idea of Plato, it can be stated like this: there are two reality:the observable and the unobservable. the known and the unknowable. The unobservables are and cannot be comprehend by the human mind but can be accepted by faith or believing.

A system of thought based on faith is irrational, subjective, anti-life and even false. When I say irrational, meaning against reason, then it is anti-mind.

An example of an anti-mind can be seen in the bible story of Adam and Eve. They were driven out of the garden of Eden because of the disobedience to an irrational rule of God which is: do not eat the FRUIT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. God banned man from eating the FRUIT OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. The question is WHY? Why tree of knowledge not guava tree or apple tree? No answers from theolegian, priest, pastors.

The Bilble is the source document of the teaching of Christianity. Koran to the Islam.

TO JEFF:

Objectively, the only evidence in reality we can find to the concept "spirit or soul" is the mind. The mind is man's attribute, and it is enclosed in the brain. When the brain disintegrate or die so then its attribute. Mind and body is one. When the body dies, the mind goes along. It is only in the religious teachings that man is being split between the mind and the body. This idea results to contraditions or dichotomy. This can be seen in our society the Philippines. The Philippines is a christian country (majority believe God) but one of the top ten corrupt. Why? And the answer is simply because of the kind of system of thought.
A man has mind his attribute. His mind is his tool of his survival The mind is our tool in living here on earth. In order to live you have to eat. To find food, build house, produce clothes, and all the values we have now you use your mind. They are the product of man's mind including the idea about God.

TO AGTA:

Can you find in reality a bush in fire that cannot be consumed or a bush that talks? Can you find in reality a snake talking to human beings? Or can you find in reality a human body that turn into pillar of salt? Can you find in reality a water that turns into a wine in a click of your hand? The only exact answer is in comics, in the movies or in literatures including the bible. The bible is man's product of his imaginations, of his system of thought.

Or can you find in reality a big elephant flying in the sky? Let's be honest.

To a primitive man, an airplane is a miracle. To a primitive man, going to the moon is just a wishfull imagination. To a primitive man, a radio (a talking box) is to be worship as God. What is a miracle? Define miracle? What is the difference between miracle and magic? Turning the stick into a snake is miracle or magic? Have you seen a magician turning a stick into a handkerchief?

agta
12-11-2007, 11:22 PM
Or, should it not be: PHILOSOPHY, A FORM OF RELIGION?

Jeff
12-12-2007, 09:20 AM
How can it be that religion is a kind of philosopy, where infact religion is a way of worshipping.

I thought this issue is gone. This is not timely to discuss this issue. Better if the author should go to Vatican and discuss this matter to the Pope.

In philosophical term, If people has nothing to believe in, picture what kind of life or world we have now...

ksc
12-12-2007, 10:04 AM
religion itself is philosophy....

have you ever studied oriental philosophy? try to if not...

religion is way of life the same as philosophy...

try not to misunderstood the two terms.... though in the strict sense of the word thier is a difference but in the its realm religion and philosophy are one...

Jeff
12-12-2007, 11:39 AM
religion itself is philosophy....

have you ever studied oriental philosophy? try to if not...

religion is way of life the same as philosophy...

try not to misunderstood the two terms.... though in the strict sense of the word thier is a difference but in the its realm religion and philosophy are one...

I disagree with you. Try read the bible... why base in oriental philosophy which is man thing not God thing. Better study the bible anyway both us aim high diba of course those who are unbelievers its not appropriate to. Man made philosophy (either western, eastern, southern, northern, oriental, occidental,outerspace philosophy) has so many flaws.

ksc
12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
in any way... may it be the bible or jesus or whom or what you believe.... its still is a philosophy.... the problem is you are dichotomizing the essence of religion and philosophy....

Jeff
12-12-2007, 04:47 PM
in any way... may it be the bible or jesus or whom or what you believe.... its still is a philosophy.... the problem is you are dichotomizing the essence of religion and philosophy....


It's a simple question to you. Do you believe that a philosopher believed in miracles? If you say they don't then there is no connection that you would say religion is also a philosophy. Besides, most religions tend to include some sort of belief in what can only be described as the “miraculous” — events which either defy normal explanation or which are, in principal, outside the boundaries of what should occur in our universe. Miracles may not play a very large role in every religion, but they are a common feature which you don’t find in philosophy. So paano maging isa yun?

acpatagnan
12-16-2007, 08:45 AM
The thread is in a form of a question. First let us identify what is religion, then what is philosophy.

Religion is an association of men whose idea is the belief in supernatural being without any proof or evidence. The basic fundamental is faith without any proof or evidence. (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhisim, etc.)

Philosophy is an integrated system of thought. As I explained earlier, an explicit statement of thought classified (technically) into metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and esthetic. Metaphysics simply deals with the nature of reality, epistemology deals with knowledge, ethics deals with what action man must have based on the metaphysics and epistemology. They are integral whole into one idea of thought.

Now, religion can be explained under metaphysics, epistemology and the resulting ethics, politics and esthetics.

I stated earlier that all of us, each individual man, has its own philosophy, whether your know it or not, most probably you don't know it. For man to live a good life he must have to know what explicitly is his own philosophy and judge it whether it is right, or wrong, true or false, good or evil. It is necessary to a thinking man-to be a human being.

And in order to know the philosophy you unconsciously acquired since your birth, you have to THINK AND THEN JUDGE WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR FALSE.

Don't you know that a statement like " Bahala na..." is a result of a system of thought?

zarahemla
12-16-2007, 01:01 PM
Since the early stages of civilization philosophy has been closely connected with religion. This fact is strikingly apparent in Indian philosophy, which is intimately bound up with the doctrine of the sacred books, The Vedas. In the early stages of Greek civilization, the boundary line between philosophy and other departments of human knowledge was not sharply defined, and philosophy was understood to mean 'every striving towards knowledge'. In the ninth century A.D, Alcuin says that philosophy is 'investigation of nature, and such knowledge of things human and Divine as is possible for man.

The philosophy of religion is the science which examines the value of religion, and investigates with careful scrutiny the grounds of theistic belief. It seeks to provide a rational account of God and the universe (not founded on convention and belief). In its method of procedure and choice of arguments, it shows considerable variation, due in large measure to the different theories of knowledge that obtain in the world of philosophers.

Generally though in philosophy, God is refered to as the One thing that exists, infinite and eternal, that causes and connects the many things. Likewise, Religion, from Latin 'religare' meaning 'to bind', describes our connection to God as the One thing which exists. From this foundation a connection can be found between the sciences of philosophy, physics, metaphysics, and theology, as they are all founded on the Reality of One thing existing.

agta
12-16-2007, 01:04 PM
The thread is in a form of a question. First let us identify what is religion, then what is philosophy.

Religion is an association of men whose idea is the belief in supernatural being without any proof or evidence. The basic fundamental is faith without any proof or evidence. (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhisim, etc.)
"Without any proof or evidence"? I don't subscribe to that definition of religion. For my proof or evidence is personal to me. If your experiences in life is the same as my experiences, then maybe we could agree.


Now, religion can be explained under metaphysics, epistemology and the resulting ethics, politics and esthetics.
OK, try explaining religion here under metaphysics, then under epistemology, ethics, politics and esthetics.


For man to live a good life he must have to know what explicitly is his own philosophy and judge it whether it is right, or wrong, true or false, good or evil. It is necessary to a thinking man-to be a human being.
And what is the yardstick to serve as basis to say that one's philosophy is right or wrong, true or false, good or evil?

Here is a website that may satisfy your interest. Click "here" (http://forums.catholic.com/index.php?).

agta
12-16-2007, 01:25 PM
TO AGTA:

Can you find in reality a bush in fire that cannot be consumed or a bush that talks? Can you find in reality a snake talking to human beings? Or can you find in reality a human body that turn into pillar of salt? Can you find in reality a water that turns into a wine in a click of your hand? The only exact answer is in comics, in the movies or in literatures including the bible. The bible is man's product of his imaginations, of his system of thought.

Or can you find in reality a big elephant flying in the sky? Let's be honest.

To a primitive man, an airplane is a miracle. To a primitive man, going to the moon is just a wishfull imagination. To a primitive man, a radio (a talking box) is to be worship as God. What is a miracle? Define miracle? What is the difference between miracle and magic? Turning the stick into a snake is miracle or magic? Have you seen a magician turning a stick into a handkerchief?
During his time, the primitive man never imagined that in or about the year 2007 he shall be called a primitive man. Yes, to him during his time an airplane may be a miracle, if only there was an airplane then. Unfortunately there was none yet. Now, do you suppose that 100 thousand years from now, you and I will not in turn be called "primitive" by the people of year 102007? If today someone would walk on the surface of the sea, people will call it a miracle. But suppose in year 102007 walking on the surface of the sea would be a simple exercise, then it would no longer be a miracle but a reality.

The point is, just because an individual could not explain something in this world today he should not simply dismiss it as wishful thinking and therefore impossible of reality.

Jeff
12-17-2007, 11:48 AM
My goodness! Generally speaking Philosophy is a process of thinking. It is possible in philosophy for one to discard things that he/she no longer needs. Things that may have seemed to explain something one day, may not the next day, and in philosophy we are able to throw that explaination away and look for another.

Ang bible o ang Koran hindi nababago or pabagobago ba? Can philosophy explain why people were cured of their illness because of their strong faith to God? Ilang philosophical thinking naba ang nababago dahil mali mali ang kanilang mga theories mula pa sa kaunaunahang philosopher o great thinker daw. Lahat ng philophical thinking ay nag uumpinsa sa hypothetical basis o agam agam. Ang bible ba o koran may hypothetical basis ba? wala all are absolute. Di kailan man nagkaroon ng scientific experiment ang bible o koran dahil ito ay gawa at salita ng Dios!

acpatagnan
12-17-2007, 03:27 PM
To Jeff:

Yes, philosophy is a system of thought. Whether you know it or not, explicitly stated or implied each of us have a philosophy-a certain system of thought. We acquired that since from our birth. Why? because man is a thinking being. MAN HAS A MIND, REASON. That is his nature. The mind is our tool of knowing all things in reality for the purpose of living. By using this tool we make our life better and enjoyable and moral.

If you study the bible or koran in totality or studying the basic or the fundamentals what do you find? What does the bible say about reality, the nature of things as a whole? It will tell that there are two realities: the natural things and the supernatural things. (This is metaphysics). How do they know it? What tools did they use?with regards to the supernatural. (This is epistemology) The supernatural here means beyond the natural things.

Of course, it is obvious that natural things are observable, can be studied and discovered their natures and this is the result of science. Science is a process of study, learning and discovering knowledge about the nature of things. The tools is the MIND.
How about the supernatural? Can it be subjected to observations, identification, and discovering its nature. The only thing that religion will tell is for you to just believe it with fear and trembling.

Under the metaphysics that deals with the nature of reality, religion mostly advocate supernaturalism and epistemologically (how do they know) by FAITH ONLY.

Now which do you prefer the philosophy of SCIENCE or the philosophy of RELIGION? Which philosophy is TRUE OR FALSE, RIGHT OR WRONG, GOOD OR EVIL? This is now ethics.

acpatagnan
12-17-2007, 03:40 PM
To Zarahemla:

You are right. Therefore religion is a form of philosophy. Next question is what philosophy that is based on reality? And there is only ONE REALITY. Reality that can be observed, identified, studied and discovered its nature.

acpatagnan
12-17-2007, 03:57 PM
To Agta,
[QUOTE=agta;2650]"Without any proof or evidence"? I don't subscribe to that definition of religion. For my proof or evidence is personal to me. If your experiences in life is the same as my experiences, then maybe we could agree.

The proof or evidence is the reality. The real things are things that are observable, can be identifed, studied and discovered its nature.

Example, there is no proof or evidence you can find in reality about the bush talking and not consumed by fire. It is only stated and (believed by many) written in the bible. The bible, whether you agree or not is just a plain literature made by men. And anything man-made are subject to enquiry about its truth based on observable and identifieble reality.

Religion if you try to understand its basic or fundamentals is all about supernatural things that have no proof or evidence that can be presented and pinpointed in real world we lived in. The data of proof can be acquired through our sense organ. Our sense organ is our link to reality.
What you saw, heared, touched, smelled and tasted are real and true.

Jeff
12-17-2007, 04:45 PM
To Jeff:

Yes, philosophy is a system of thought. Whether you know it or not, explicitly stated or implied each of us have a philosophy-a certain system of thought. We acquired that since from our birth. Why? because man is a thinking being. MAN HAS A MIND, REASON. That is his nature. The mind is our tool of knowing all things in reality for the purpose of living. By using this tool we make our life better and enjoyable and moral.

If you study the bible or koran in totality or studying the basic or the fundamentals what do you find? What does the bible say about reality, the nature of things as a whole? It will tell that there are two realities: the natural things and the supernatural things. (This is metaphysics). How do they know it? What tools did they use?with regards to the supernatural. (This is epistemology) The supernatural here means beyond the natural things.

Of course, it is obvious that natural things are observable, can be studied and discovered their natures and this is the result of science. Science is a process of study, learning and discovering knowledge about the nature of things. The tools is the MIND.
How about the supernatural? Can it be subjected to observations, identification, and discovering its nature. The only thing that religion will tell is for you to just believe it with fear and trembling.

Under the metaphysics that deals with the nature of reality, religion mostly advocate supernaturalism and epistemologically (how do they know) by FAITH ONLY.

Now which do you prefer the philosophy of SCIENCE or the philosophy of RELIGION? Which philosophy is TRUE OR FALSE, RIGHT OR WRONG, GOOD OR EVIL? This is now ethics... I will not answer you that because I never consolidate religion as a form of philosophy (man's thing).

May I ask you one more time. Is there a philosophy made/existed before the creation of the world? the creation of mankind ?

Jeff
12-17-2007, 05:14 PM
Philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, and of man's relationship to existence. … In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible.
—Ayn Rand

If we paraphrase it in lay mans term. It implies to existence, meaning physical thing.

Religion true meaning is worshipping, meaning to worship the one who creates the whole physical and non physical things. Religion, ever since the world began, man has demonstrated a natural inclination towards faith and worship of anything he considered superior/difficult to understand. His religion consisted of trying to appease and get favors from the supreme being he feared. This resulted in performing rituals (some of them barbaric) and keeping traditions or laws to earn goodness and/or everlasting life. So where is the philosophy there?

The missing link that binds philosophy and religion is faith, something dying to believe in. Philosophy is a studies the fundamental nature of existence, meaning man don't believed that never exist, in short they don't believed in GOD or the existence of GOD at all.

God according to the believers like me is not a physical thing, we believe God as spiritual thing unlike us that we have a corruptible body like a rag as ages will pass by. So where is the philosophy on that? All your great grand philosophers died passed away. Where they go after their death? We believed in our faith that they are in the hands of our God, now where is the philophy on that? None. Think over what Ayn Rand had said.

agta
12-18-2007, 10:58 PM
To Agta,
[QUOTE=agta;2650]

The proof or evidence is the reality. The real things are things that are observable, can be identifed, studied and discovered its nature.
Let us go back to your example of the primitive man. During his time, there was no airplane. In your logic, airplane therefore had no reality. But as you see, what was not real during the primitive man has become reality today. What does this mean? This means that reality could be actual or potential. During the time of the primitive man, airplane was simply a potential reality. Today, airplane is actual reality. Therefore, there are two kinds of reality: Potential reality and actual reality. Nonetheless, both are reality.


Example, there is no proof or evidence you can find in reality about the bush talking and not consumed by fire. It is only stated and (believed by many) written in the bible. The bible, whether you agree or not is just a plain literature made by men. And anything man-made are subject to enquiry about its truth based on observable and identifieble reality.
That would be true if all are actual reality. But as you have seen, there are what we call potential reality.


Religion if you try to understand its basic or fundamentals is all about supernatural things that have no proof or evidence that can be presented and pinpointed in real world we lived in. The data of proof can be acquired through our sense organ. Our sense organ is our link to reality.
What you saw, heared, touched, smelled and tasted are real and true.
Yes, "what you saw, heard, touched, smelled and tasted are real and true" but only to those who actually experiences them. There is no guarantee that what you saw and heard was also seen and heard by another all the time. Who knows if one is not simply dreaming? Who knows if one who insists he saw and heard was in fact only caught in a delusion? He insists that he saw and heard. Then gradually others got to see and hear the same also until only one remains, only mr. patagnan remain not to have seen or heard. What do you think would you consider yourself then?

hedwig
12-20-2007, 08:10 PM
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. ( according to the difinition of Google.com)

:confused::confused::confused:
A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer), ritual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual), and religious law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_law). Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition), writings, history, and mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology), as well as personal faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith) and mystic experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism). The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.
(http://www.wikipedia.com )

arlakz
02-12-2008, 09:35 AM
So what branch of philosophy do you think is that? And what is it to you if reality is full of miracles? If you can bring anybody dead from the grave back to life, then I would believe in your questionable philosophy.
mr. acpatagnan sir are you a philosophy teacher?...i'm a philosophy major student of the univeristy of san jose recoletos a pre postulant seminarian of the o.a.d...i agree that religion is a form of philosophy becuase in our ethics subject or moral philosphy both have the same relationship in accordance to the law of moral existence of man, and to the norms of the natural society...

Jeff
02-12-2008, 12:44 PM
mr. acpatagnan sir are you a philosophy teacher?...i'm a philosophy major student of the univeristy of san jose recoletos a pre postulant seminarian of the o.a.d...i agree that religion is a form of philosophy becuase in our ethics subject or moral philosphy both have the same relationship in accordance to the law of moral existence of man, and to the norms of the natural society...

But what Mr.ACPatagnan described the existence of GOD is a big difference of what you learned in the seminary. You may check first the root of this thread.

acpatagnan
03-12-2008, 02:17 PM
So what branch of philosophy do you think is that? And what is it to you if reality is full of miracles? If you can bring anybody dead from the grave back to life, then I would believe in your questionable philosophy.

Miracles is a violation of the law of nature. It implies that A is not totally A meaning it can be otherwise or B like the example in the bible a snake that can talked to man. If that is what is being taught in the bible then it corrupts the mind-it denies the natural function of the mind of man. It is impossible in reality we can find a snake that can talk, or man that can make a dead body rise up to life. We can rightly say that it is all but an imagination or just plain fantasy.

TO JEFF,& ARLAKZ
First, I am not a seminarian. I am just acting my mind.

If you accept the fact that REASON IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE for man in order to live here on earth, then you will agree that the idea of God has no connections or basis in the real world we live in. According to religion (Christianity,Islam,Hinduism, Buddishm etc) there is a supernatural being (they call it God, Allah, Karma etc). How do they know it? You accept it because 1.) you are born with it, your parents religion, 2.) of its promise-life beyond the grave, sex with the virgin etc. 3.) by FAITH, by feelings without any proof or evidence to support the idea or claim.

According to christianity, man is by nature evil or sinner, therefore using his mind is not necessary, just obey God or suffer and die for the sake of God. This is false and denies the exact natural function of man's mind. What is the nature of our mind? What is reason? It is our tool of knowing reality. It is our source of knowledge about our surroundings, our world. Man made things are the product of reason, of our mind and it becomes part of the concrete reality we live in. To create an airplane, takes a discipline effort of the mind, to observe the birds, the study of aerodynamics, Prayer wont build computers, buildings etc. Spending your life praying wont sent you to the moon, only by imagination and fantasy.

Philosophy is an abstraction or ideas of the mind. And religion is one of the philosophy-a philosophy not based on reason that is connected to reality by observations and logic. Philosophy deals about ideas or viewpoint about nature of reality(existence), about the nature of man, about the relationship of man with reality(existence). Technically, metaphysics (about reality),epistemology(about knowledge), ethics(about the application of the first two) and politics unders ethics(the application of ethics in social context)

Those are not difficult to understand if you have the tool which is your mind. That is objective of education, how to use the mind properly. Just like our body, exercises make it strong, and healthy. Thinking, asking questions finding answer through observation and using logic keeps your mind in proper functions makes you own life better to live and enjoyable.

acpatagnan
03-12-2008, 02:50 PM
But what Mr.ACPatagnan described the existence of GOD is a big difference of what you learned in the seminary. You may check first the root of this thread.

In a seminary, generally it is all about theology. It is based on the premise that God exist and reason is only act as a handmaiden of faith. The prime factor is faith and reason is just secondary. They use reason as a rationalization, that is arguments to suit to their faith. Tomas Aquinas tried to mixed faith with reason but to no avail or failed to do so. He uses logic to defend faith and it has been refuted.

It is very simple to understand. According to religion God created the universe. Based on that premise, if God created the universe who created God? And what is the rationalization they give in answer? Ask a seminarian, and they will evade the question and the logic.

The answer is that the universe (matters) cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. It just changes its form or evolved and continuosly evolving until now. Science is all about discovering by observations and the application of logic to form knowledge about nature (reality of things). The knowledge acquired by science is put into application (tecnology) for the bettermen of our life.

What is the morality (ethics) based on religion?
What is the morality (ethics) based on reason (science)?

Whether you accept it or not it is a fact that REASON (science) IS CONTRARY or opposite to FAITH (religion).

Religion as I said is a primitive form of philosophy, an early view or idea about reality, about the nature of things, about the nature of man and its relationship to reality.

acpatagnan
03-12-2008, 04:13 PM
According to Zaldivar, religion is all about worshiping god. How can a person worship or idolize something if he cannot identify its nature. Worship is a form of feeling or emotion towards something. What you actually worshiping is the idea of the HIGHEST GOOD, the supreme value. In the real world what you idolizes are the good, the best, the great. the perfect. Man is capable of it all. Man can be good and perfect and best. What he should do is use his faculty of reason. Man can commit errors and mistake. That is why we have the mind to be used to know what is good, best for our life. Before you act you have to know first. Thinking before doing. Feelings or emotions is NOT the basis of knowledge. FEELINGS (FAITH) is not the tool of cognition.

What do you worship LIFE OR DEATH?
Jesus Christ hanging dead in the cross in front of you is a form of worship of DEATH (sacrifice,suffering). This is ALTRUISM the fundamental doctrine and teaching of christianity-the primary purpose of life is sacrifice for others(either God or others, the mass)

Now can you enjoy your life without some sort of guilt by that kind of ideology or philosophy?

According to catholics, sex is a necessary evil. Sex is necessary for production and not for lifes enjoyment. According to the pope sex is evil.
How do you know that sex is evil? Of course by faith according to the bible.

But I will tell you that sex is the highest form of happiness in life. Its a form of woship toward life- A WORSHIP OF LIFE.

agta
03-14-2008, 11:47 PM
According to Zaldivar, religion is all about worshiping god. How can a person worship or idolize something if he cannot identify its nature. Worship is a form of feeling or emotion towards something.
As you are well aware of, man is composed not only of feelings or emotions. Man thinks too. And the act of worshipping involves the totality of man. The greatest commandment is, "Love God with all your mind and with all your heart."


What you actually worshiping is the idea of the HIGHEST GOOD, the supreme value. In the real world what you idolizes are the good, the best, the great. the perfect.
Unfortunately for you, this Highest Good, in truth is not simply an idea. He is a person Himself. Lucky are those who were given an opportunity to have encountered his loving presence.


Man is capable of it all. Man can be good and perfect and best. What he should do is use his faculty of reason.
Really? Man can be perfect by the use of his reason alone? How old is the world today? And from the millions of years that have passed, who was the man that became perfect by the use of his reason alone? Is there anyone? None that I know. It is therefore safe to conclude that reason alone is not relliable tool for perfection.


Man can commit errors and mistake. That is why we have the mind to be used to know what is good, best for our life. Before you act you have to know first. Thinking before doing. Feelings or emotions is NOT the basis of knowledge. FEELINGS (FAITH) is not the tool of cognition.
Yes, man can commit errors and mistakes! So, what happens if one becomes perfect (that is, he no longer commits mistakes) by the use of his reason? By your logic, he ceases to be called man, isn't it? If he is no longer man, what is he?


Jesus Christ hanging dead in the cross in front of you is a form of worship of DEATH (sacrifice,suffering). This is ALTRUISM the fundamental doctrine and teaching of christianity-the primary purpose of life is sacrifice for others(either God or others, the mass)
That is a typical view of one who is outside of it. For in truth, the primary purpose of life is to love God. And the secondary purpose is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.



According to catholics, sex is a necessary evil. Sex is necessary for production and not for lifes enjoyment. According to the pope sex is evil.
Where and when did the Pope said that sex is evil? Please show proof by giving the link here in this thread.


But I will tell you that sex is the highest form of happiness in life. Its a form of woship toward life- A WORSHIP OF LIFE.
What? Sex is the highest form of happiness in life? How did you arrive to that conclusion? You said, "Before you act you have to know first." Declaring something controversial is itself an act. Therefore, I'm sure you knew first before you declared that "Sex is the highest form of happiness in life." So, please show us here the logic that lead you to that conclusion.

acpatagnan
06-14-2008, 06:25 PM
In answer to Agtas, question about the "sex is highest form of happiness".

Yes, sex is the highest form of happines. Sex involves a partner. In choosing a partner, the basis is your valuation of who you want to be with. Your valuation is based on your moral values, on your thinking what is good, right, bad or wrong. If what you choose to be your partner have the same value as you are then sex is the consumate application, expression resulting into the highest form of happiness. Both of you enjoy it equally of the same mind. Sex is not just a matter of sexual sensation alone like a one night stand with a slut or a whore without any thinking who you are having with.:D


But this thread is about religion a form of philosophy. Philosophy is an abstraction. Same with religion. It is an abstraction, it is a form of concept, idea. Metaphysics and epistemology are branches of philosophy, so with religion. Metaphysics deals and study about the nature of reality, the nature of things. The same with religion it deals also with the view about the nature of reality. In epistemology, it deals about the nature of knowledge, how to acquire knowledge. The same with religion it deals with the view about how you acquired the knowledge of God. The application of the two branches is ethics. Religion is also an application of ethics.

Therefore, religion is a form of philosophy, but a primitive form of philosophy.:D:D:D

agta
06-16-2008, 02:03 AM
Yes, sex is the highest form of happines. Sex involves a partner. In choosing a partner, the basis is your valuation of who you want to be with. Your valuation is based on your moral values, on your thinking what is good, right, bad or wrong. If what you choose to be your partner have the same value as you are then sex is the consumate application, expression resulting into the highest form of happiness. Both of you enjoy it equally of the same mind. Sex is not just a matter of sexual sensation alone like a one night stand with a slut or a whore without any thinking who you are having with.
You are therefore saying that the reason why you consider sex is the highest form of happiness is because it involves a partner. But dancing "tango" also involves a partner. And yet it does not make it highest form of happiness. Therefore, the reason you presented is eliminated.
You said, "If what you choose to be your partner have the same value as you are then sex is the consumate application, expression resulting into the highest form of happiness." What is your scientific basis for saying that? Without a scientific basis, what you are saying here is simply an opinion, your opinion. A belief similar to what you call belief in tikbalang.:D



But this thread is about religion a form of philosophy.
You should be careful next time with your posts. Stick to the main issue of the thread so that you would not get bombarded left and right with issues of your own making but foreign to the thread.:p

acpatagnan
06-17-2008, 09:14 AM
To Agta,

What is sex to you? Is sex like dancing only?

Sex is having sexual intercourse with an opposite sex. Your partner is the opposite sex. Sex is the expression of your being, of your character. of your value. You experienced the highest form of happiness by having sex with a person who have the same value you have. I refer you to my thread the meaning of sex.

But religous philosophy about sex is different. Sex is only for procreation. It is not for enjoyment. The pope call it necessary evil. What is the philosophy behind it or the idea behind, the abstraction, the conception.

Generally, religion is a form of philosophy. Philosophy is of the mind. The foundation of knowledge. Objective philosophy (REASON) is the foundation of science. While religious philosophy is the foundation of faith.:D

acpatagnan
06-17-2008, 09:41 AM
Philosophy is man's foundation knowledge. It deals with the study about metaphysics and epistemology. Ethics is the application. Religion also deals with those things. Ask any seminarians or priest or theolegian or pastor.

And there is Objective philosophy which is a philosophy of human reason. This is what I advocated for. The originator of this idea is Ayn Rand.

What is the religious metaphysical view or idea? To religion reality is unknowable, cannot be discover, identify. Reality to them is full of mysticism, supertitious. In the west, Plato is the explicit (the explanation) origin of that philosophy.

What about epistemology? Epistemelogy deals with the nature of knowledge, how knowledge is acquired. Religion will tell you that knowledge is put in directly in your mind. Senses is of no use. Faith is the only means.

How about ethics(morality), the application? Religion will tell you that obedience is the highest moral action. Selflessness, humility are the virtues that you must obey and follows. Are they applicable consistently?:D

These are the brief explanation that religion is a form of philosophy.:D

agta
06-17-2008, 09:21 PM
To Agta,

What is sex to you? Is sex like dancing only?
You entirely evaded the point. It was you who said that sex is the highest expression of happiness and your reason is that it involves a partner.
You therefore implied that anything that involves a partner is a highest expression of happiness! What I did in mentioning "tango" was simply to show you that your belief is false.:D


Sex is having sexual intercourse with an opposite sex.
Is that the way you define sex? If that is how you define sex, then your own words are skinning out the ignorance in you.



But religous philosophy about sex is different. Sex is only for procreation. It is not for enjoyment. The pope call it necessary evil. What is the philosophy behind it or the idea behind, the abstraction, the conception.
Where did the pope call it necessary evil? You should stop this ignoble habit of yours of putting words into the mouth of others in your wish to strengthen a void argument. You should show the link here. If you cannot, then better shut your mouth.:D


Generally, religion is a form of philosophy. Philosophy is of the mind. The foundation of knowledge. Objective philosophy (REASON) is the foundation of science. While religious philosophy is the foundation of faith.:D
You should strive to get free from the box. You are a victim of the un-institution that shaped your ideas. A mind so full of misconceptions and prejudices.

acpatagnan
06-20-2008, 01:54 PM
To Agta,

There are lots of people who will tell you that they are Catholic. But if I ask them if they have read the Pope's encyclical. Their answer is no. The Pope is the head of the Catholic church-the very source of the teachings, doctrines, the fundamental premises and idea. But most of its follower do not read it or know it exactly. Most of them come to church for the rituals, supertitious ceremonies.

Read the Pope's encyclical and check out what does the pope stated. He got the fundamental philosophy of the church. He will tell you that "sex is necessary evil". He will tell you that too much sex is addicting like drugs-from Pope Benedict. :D

Sex is the most selfish act. You do it with a person of your same value. Have you experience it with somebody?

Objectivism is a philosophy based on reason as the only means of knowledge. I accepted it because I know it is true to reality-the reality of the nature of man. By reason its true. Unlike faith in religion, its full of supertitions, non-reality based, none sense, therefore, false. Anything that is false is evil and should be discarded.:D

In life it is a matter of thinking or not thinking- REASON OR FAITH.

agta
06-21-2008, 11:20 PM
To Agta,

There are lots of people who will tell you that they are Catholic. But if I ask them if they have read the Pope's encyclical. Their answer is no. The Pope is the head of the Catholic church-the very source of the teachings, doctrines, the fundamental premises and idea. But most of its follower do not read it or know it exactly. Most of them come to church for the rituals, supertitious ceremonies.

Read the Pope's encyclical and check out what does the pope stated. He got the fundamental philosophy of the church. He will tell you that "sex is necessary evil". He will tell you that too much sex is addicting like drugs-from Pope Benedict. :D

Sex is the most selfish act. You do it with a person of your same value. Have you experience it with somebody?

Objectivism is a philosophy based on reason as the only means of knowledge. I accepted it because I know it is true to reality-the reality of the nature of man. By reason its true. Unlike faith in religion, its full of supertitions, non-reality based, none sense, therefore, false. Anything that is false is evil and should be discarded.:D

In life it is a matter of thinking or not thinking- REASON OR FAITH.
Better you read the Pope's encyclical. You will discover that in Christianity, sex is not evil. Stop talking of irrelevant things.

acpatagnan
06-24-2008, 12:46 PM
Better you read the Pope's encyclical. You will discover that in Christianity, sex is not evil. Stop talking of irrelevant things.


I made a mistake here in saying that the topic about sex can be found in "Populorum Progressio" (On the Deveolpment of People). It should be in "Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life). Both are encyclecal. The Popularum Prgressio is about the socio-economic-political aspect.

Maybe a modern priest will not exactly state it that sex necessary evil. Sex is only for procreation and NOT for enjoyment according to the Pope (Humanae Vitae). That is why catholics do not allow artificial contraception only rhythem method.

Celibacy is the application that sex evil. If man is evil by nature (original sin), and sex is part of man's nature, then logically sex is evil. It is only necessary for procreation. Thus, necessary evil. Read history of church.

Is sex a form of enjoyment? What is the church answer? What the philosophy of the church regarding sex today modern days? The Pope is the source of doctrine.:D

brategamete
02-18-2009, 10:54 PM
I made a mistake here in saying that the topic about sex can be found in "Populorum Progressio" (On the Deveolpment of People). It should be in "Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life). Both are encyclecal. The Popularum Prgressio is about the socio-economic-political aspect.

Maybe a modern priest will not exactly state it that sex necessary evil. Sex is only for procreation and NOT for enjoyment according to the Pope (Humanae Vitae). That is why catholics do not allow artificial contraception only rhythem method.

Celibacy is the application that sex evil. If man is evil by nature (original sin), and sex is part of man's nature, then logically sex is evil. It is only necessary for procreation. Thus, necessary evil. Read history of church.

Is sex a form of enjoyment? What is the church answer? What the philosophy of the church regarding sex today modern days? The Pope is the source of doctrine.:D

hehehehehehe

ipatubag tani sa mga Catholic faith defenders...

cge og depende sa ilang iglesya nga perti ka sayop....

dili tanan sayop...sori...