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  1. Default Christianity and Islam and Blind Faith 
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    I understand completely if anyone needs proof. God created our hearts and our minds, and it is irrational and unjust to think that He would want us to be satisfied emotionally but not intellectually with His truth. Too often we see the former, but not the latter. When we search for the truth, we should engage our minds first so that we can evaluate the evidence using our God-given intellects, and engage our emotions once we have found that truth, so that we can be fully committed to it with all of our being. Throughout all stages however, we should begin by asking God - the One True God on whom all things depend - to guide us to be be closer to Him. Ultimately, guidance is from Him alone.

    We should not accept blind faith. If something is the truth, why would it require blind faith ? Why should a doctrine be unclear, contradictory, or confusing ? These are attributes of doctrines created by men, not of those pure beliefs that God has instilled in our hearts naturally, and those He wishes us to develop.

    For example, all human beings are born with a predisposition to recognize and worship the One True God. This is part of the reason many of us find it impossible to deny God. Even if we are not sure of where His message might be, we know He exists. The true religion is, and always has been, a confirmation of this inborn instinct - to worship none other than God, in other words, pure monotheism, and to follow His guidance for the betterment of our life and afterlife. This has been the central message of all of the prophets, including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad the final messenger, peace be upon them all. Some of the laws they were commanded with differed according to the requirements of the particular nation to whom they were sent, but the core teachings were always the same. This common religion is, quite literally, "Islam" - a word which means, "submission to the will of God". One who submits to the will of God is a "Muslim".

    The revelation from God should be clear. God does not want to confuse us, He wants us to follow Him. If it is really is from God, it should be perfect, free of internal and external (historical, scientific) contradictions, and it should be preserved without error. The Gospels present a big problem. They are not the direct speech of God, or even of his Messenger, Jesus, peace be upon him. They are biographies written after Jesus ascended to God by men whose identities we cannot be certain of, written with specific theological agendas in mind. Where are the true words of Jesus ? Why is there so little that is reportedly said by him, not even in his original language, and much said by other men, supposedly inspired ? (Although a quick read of the opening of Luke, or III John would indicate deliberate, intentioned writing, not a revelatory or inspired experience). And why is Paul, a man who never met Jesus but claimed to see him in a vision, important enough to be able to articulate key doctrines that Jesus never taught, and to cancel laws that Jesus himself followed ?

    The evidence unearthed so far for the historical Jesus is much closer to the Islamic position than the Christian one. A picture of a righteous man emerges, who followed the tradition and laws of Moses, but concentrated on reviving the true spirit of God's message amongst the Children of Israel, who for the most part had become obsessed with formal and legalistic issues whilst losing the mercy, love and gentleness that the guidance of God should develop. We know that the doctrines of the trinity, incarnation, the sacrificed savior, divine sonship and others all have parellels in the pagan cultures (Roman, Greek, Persian) prevelant at the time these doctrines were being formulated. The idea of God fathering offspring, or of God-men walking amongst us owes much more to the influence of these pagan ideas than to pure monotheism - the belief in and worship of the One, Unseen, Transcendent God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all. Despite the corruption of the Bible, there remain explicit statements in support of real monotheism (whilst there is no explicit support for trinity - except perhaps 1 John5 -7, thrown out in the RSV and most modern bibles as an interpolation, but which remains in the KJV..), and in support of the humanity of Jesus and his subserviance to God (whereas verses alleged to indicate his divinity are obscure and rely upon a lot of interpretation).

    Our belief in Jesus is not that he is just a righteous man, but that he is one of the greatest messengers of God, like Moses before him, and Muhammad after him, peace be upon them all. We believe in his virgin birth, and his miracles like raising the dead, healing the sick, and so on. We believe that God saved him from his enemies and did not allow him to be crucified, and that he will return to earth near the end of time to complete his mission.

    Muslims believe they are the true followers of Jesus. Jesus worshipped only God - a strict monotheist, as Muslims are today. He "fell on his face and prayed" - the characteristic of Muslim prayer. He fasted, just as we do. He didn't eat pork, and neither do we. He greeted his disciples with "peace be to you" - and this is the universal Islamic greeting - in Arabic "Assalamu'alaikum". "Isa" - which is the Arabic form of "Jesus" is even a common name for Muslim boys. Moreover, we love him deeply, and believe in him completely. When he returns to earth, it is the Muslims, not the Christians who he will recognize as the true followers of all of the prophets, including himself.

    There are a number of reasons to take the Qur'an as a reliable account of who Jesus is, what he said, and what he did. First of all, the Qur'an does not claim to be the words of men (or a man), whether inspired or not. It claims to be the literal, word for word speech of God Himself, and offers evidence for it's claims. Secondly, it is perfectly preserved, through massive parallel chains of memmorization passed on from generation to generation (a practice alive and well today - with tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims around the world who have memmorized the entire book), and in writing, since the time it was revealed.

    Those who doubt the Qur'an claim it was written by Muhammad, but it is well known that he was illiterate, like the vast majority of people of Arabia at that time. What we do know about him is that he was known for his honesty and good conduct, to the extent that he was nicknamed 'Al-Amin' - the trustworthy, and called upon to arbitrate in the bitter disputes between the Arabs. We know that he kept away from idolatry, adultery and all the other evils of his time, and chose to worship only the God of Abraham, his forefather. Besides, how does an illiterate man compose what is acknowledged as the most beautiful work ever produced in the Arabic language ? Actually it goes further - the Qur'an challenges anyone to produce a chapter like it. The Arabs were excellent poets and knew how to use their language well, but none were able to match the depth, power and beauty of the Qur'an. This is not a subjective evaluation. Arabic is divided into 16 forms (called "bihar") - one for speech, one for poetry, and so on. The Qur'an fit into none of these forms. In other words, it was a completely new pattern, it defied linguistic classification, and at the same time moved men to tears, and sometimes to embrace Islam, merely upon hearing it's sublime words. This is just one aspect of the miracle of the Qur'an. It also contains explicit, precise prophecies which have come to pass, and information about scientific and natural phenomena, such as the development of the human embryo, which have only recently come to be known in the light of modern instrumentation and techniques.

    In summary, it is this, and nothing less, that we should expect from a book that claims to be of divine origin, upon whose teachings we have chosen to base our lives.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by justme View Post
    The revelation from God should be clear. God does not want to confuse us, He wants us to follow Him. If it is really is from God, it should be perfect, free of internal and external (historical, scientific) contradictions, and it should be preserved without error. The Gospels present a big problem. They are not the direct speech of God, or even of his Messenger, Jesus, peace be upon him. They are biographies written after Jesus ascended to God by men whose identities we cannot be certain of, written with specific theological agendas in mind. Where are the true words of Jesus ? Why is there so little that is reportedly said by him, not even in his original language, and much said by other men, supposedly inspired ? (Although a quick read of the opening of Luke, or III John would indicate deliberate, intentioned writing, not a revelatory or inspired experience). And why is Paul, a man who never met Jesus but claimed to see him in a vision, important enough to be able to articulate key doctrines that Jesus never taught, and to cancel laws that Jesus himself followed ?
    It is not surprising if the gospels present a big problem to you, a Muslim. Just as the Quoran likwise present a big problem to me. But although the Quoran present a big problem to me, there is nothing I can do about it. It is a book considered precious by the Muslim people, so be it to them. It is none of my business questioning their religion or their beliefs so long as they would not inflict harm upon my people.

    But when a Muslim starts questioning the authenticity of the book that I too hold precious, then that Muslim be better prepared for a word war that he is playing to initiate. We shall take all questions one by one, purely, objectively and charitably.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    It is not surprising if the gospels present a big problem to you, a Muslim. Just as the Quoran likwise present a big problem to me. But although the Quoran present a big problem to me, there is nothing I can do about it. It is a book considered precious by the Muslim people, so be it to them. It is none of my business questioning their religion or their beliefs so long as they would not inflict harm upon my people.

    But when a Muslim starts questioning the authenticity of the book that I too hold precious, then that Muslim be better prepared for a word war that he is playing to initiate. We shall take all questions one by one, purely, objectively and charitably.
    Actually madam, I was once a Christian, raised by a religious lola, and as a human being in search for God. I happen to study the Bible, the doctrines, teachings etc. and there are so many unanswered questions... using the power of intellect and observation I was able to see in a broad manner what is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity. So I seek, I searched and prayed to be enlighten and guided for i dont want to part in this life without even knowing my Creator. Since then different religions attracted me but only in Islam that were my questions were answered, doubts cleared and faith strongly connected to the one and only God... and because of that I have peace...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by justme View Post
    Actually madam, I was once a Christian, raised by a religious lola, and as a human being in search for God. I happen to study the Bible, the doctrines, teachings etc. and there are so many unanswered questions... using the power of intellect and observation I was able to see in a broad manner what is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity. So I seek, I searched and prayed to be enlighten and guided for i dont want to part in this life without even knowing my Creator. Since then different religions attracted me but only in Islam that were my questions were answered, doubts cleared and faith strongly connected to the one and only God... and because of that I have peace...
    So, may I pursue the issue you raised here: What is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity?
    Last edited by agta; 06-18-2008 at 09:35 PM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    So, may I pursue the issue you raised here: What is wrong or lacking in a faith given by Christianity?
    1. The Divinity of the Holiness of the Bible
    2. The Doctrine of Trinity
    3. The Doctrine of Divinity of Jesus (Is Jesus God?)
    4. The Doctrine of Sonship of Jesus(Is Jesus the Son of God?)
    5. The doctrines of Paul (Is he an apostle of Jesus?No)
    6. The doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

    These are the major topics...


    at kung hihimay himayin po yan eh makikita po talaga kung saan nakabase ang Kristiyanismo...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by justme View Post
    1. The Divinity of the Holiness of the Bible
    2. The Doctrine of Trinity
    3. The Doctrine of Divinity of Jesus (Is Jesus God?)
    4. The Doctrine of Sonship of Jesus(Is Jesus the Son of God?)
    5. The doctrines of Paul (Is he an apostle of Jesus?No)
    6. The doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin

    These are the major topics...


    at kung hihimay himayin po yan eh makikita po talaga kung saan nakabase ang Kristiyanismo...
    I see.

    First of all, Christianity does not teach that the bible is Divine. Therefore, ang mali ay ang inyong paniwala, hindi ang turo ng Kristianismo.

    Second, what is the doctrine of the Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity simply teaches that there is only One God composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To understand the oneness of these three distinct Divine Persons, we looked at the vine which has three branches: one extending toward the east, another toward the west, and another toward the north. Three branches in one vine; three persons in one God. This Divinity of each of the three persons in One God is revealed in the bible.

    Third, Jesus is God, as revealed in our bible. You believe in your Quran, you don't have authority to deprive us to believe in our bible. Just as you have a right to believe in the Quran, we too have a right to believe in the bible.

    Fourth, our bible tells us so, that Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God. Your Quran is yours, take it with you. But our bible is ours, so you do not have a right to prevent us from believing what is revealed in our bible.

    Fifth, the concept of "apostle" is not limited to only one meaning. When we refer to the first twelve apostles of Jesus, then yes, there is no question, Paul is not one of them. But when we refer to one who has seen Jesus and decided to follow His will, then Paul had seen Jesus and followed His will. And by that criteria, Paul is right for claiming that he was an apostle.

    Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another. Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.

    Now, with all those clarifications, what makes them wrong to you? And how are they wrong?
    Last edited by agta; 06-19-2008 at 05:40 AM.
     

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    Justme, since you have been criticizing Christianity and its tenets, may I pass it back to you by asking you: What is wrong with ISLAM?? Why is Koran teaching its followers to KILL THE INFIDELS?? (There are sooooooooo many questionable phrases in Koran that pertains to persecution of "NON-BELIEVERS"). WHY in the Middle East which is mostly Muslim, Strife is prevalent?? Could you say that to Christian countries??
     

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    If God had chosen the jews as his chosen people, then why would he reveal His words to the arabs which is a gentile nation? I just don't get it...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    I see.

    First of all, Christianity does not teach that the bible is Divine. Therefore, ang mali ay ang inyong paniwala, hindi ang turo ng Kristianismo.
    Okay…

    Rephrase:

    Do you believe that the Bible is God’s Word? If yes why?

    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Second, what is the doctrine of the Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity simply teaches that there is only One God composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To understand the oneness of these three distinct Divine Persons, we looked at the vine which has three branches: one extending toward the east, another toward the west, and another toward the north. Three branches in one vine; three persons in one God. This Divinity of each of the three persons in One God is revealed in the bible.
    There is no such thing in the Bible as three persons in one God. Can you give the verse in the Bible?

    Where in the Bible does it reveal the divinity of these three persons in one God?

    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Third, Jesus is God, as revealed in our bible. You believe in your Quran, you don't have authority to deprive us to believe in our bible. Just as you have a right to believe in the Quran, we too have a right to believe in the bible.
    Can you give me the verse in the Bible were Jesus said he is God and the people should worship him.

    I am not depriving you to believe in your Bible –nang uusisa lang po… masama bang magtanong?


    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Fourth, our bible tells us so, that Jesus is the Only-begotten Son of God. Your Quran is yours, take it with you. But our bible is ours, so you do not have a right to prevent us from believing what is revealed in our bible.
    If he is the only begotten Son of God…and if I can produce verses in the Bible that uses that term on other people in the Bible…will you accept that word should not be taken literally?

    This statement raises a confusion…if Jesus is God…and he’s also begotten Son of God…. In a simple logic how many gods po nandiyan?

    Sample: If God said to you that you are His begotten son…will you take it literally?

    Again I’m not preventing you…each one of us can raise a question to a person…it’s our right and it should be in a proper manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Fifth, the concept of "apostle" is not limited to only one meaning. When we refer to the first twelve apostles of Jesus, then yes, there is no question, Paul is not one of them. But when we refer to one who has seen Jesus and decided to follow His will, then Paul had seen Jesus and followed His will. And by that criteria, Paul is right for claiming that he was an apostle.
    If I can give you verses in the Bible that clearly states the contradictions of Paul’s statements that he have seen Jesus. Will you at least study it? Or weigh it?

    If Jesus did not appoint him to be one of his apostle---then Paul has no right to be apostle. That means he is a self-proclaimed apostle of Jesus…at di pwde yan…


    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Sixth, original sin is the absence of something, particularly grace. What a person does not posses, naturally he cannot pass on to another. Atonement happens when a person is united with Jesus Christ either here in this world or in the world hereafter.
    So you don’t believe in original sin?

    And also in the crucifixion? Where Jesus should be crucified to save mankind…?


    Quote Originally Posted by agta View Post
    Now, with all those clarifications, what makes them wrong to you? And how are they wrong?
    It’s not yet clarified po…that’s why I’m still having this discussion with you…ok lang po ba?

    Btw, what’s your religion po?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by echo101 View Post
    If God had chosen the jews as his chosen people, then why would he reveal His words to the arabs which is a gentile nation? I just don't get it...
    Echo101, im going to answer you...just be patient muna ha...

    btw, i just want to let you know na mas gusto ko sana na kami muna ni mam Agta mag diskusyon dito sa forum na to...will that be okay with you?

    pwde magmasid ka lang muna..ung audience lang muna ha...pwde ko bang asahan yan sau?
     

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